Pine seedlings

Discussions about propagating from cuttings, seeds, air layers etc. Going on a dig (Yamadori) or thinking of importing? Discuss how, when and where here.

Pine seedlings

Postby shibui » October 16th, 2017, 6:27 pm

I have a few new JBP seedlings germinating this year. There are many ways you can grow these but some of you may be interested to see some of the things I do with them.
JBP seedlings 2017 10 1.JPG


You can leave them to get a bit bigger but I often prick some out quite early and cut the root to get better lateral roots started early.
Lift the seedlings out gently
JBP seedlings 2017 10 2.JPG


Then nip the white part of the root with scissors or fingernails.

JBP seedlings 2017 10 3.JPG


You should all know by now that roots respond very much like the top of a plant. When you prune you get more shoots (roots) growing. That's what will happen here but the new roots will be laterals rather than a single vertical down root.

I've pricked out 8 so far the others can grow in the seed tray for a bit longer before I pot them up.

JBP seedlings 2017 10 4.JPG
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Re: Pine seedlings

Postby melbrackstone » October 16th, 2017, 6:57 pm

I did that with all the seedlings I got from the seeds you sent me in June. I didn't lose any of them, and they powered away again!

You've given me a lot of confidence from your regular posts, thank you!
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Re: Pine seedlings

Postby shibui » November 19th, 2017, 5:26 pm

The remaining JBP seedlings have continued to grow and now look like this

P1180250.JPG


I could leave them a bit longer but that seedling punnet is pretty small so they won't grow very fast and there is always the chance it will dry out and I'd lose the lot so I pricked out the rest of them into individual pots.
I've found that pruning the roots at this stage gives me much better nebari in a few years so at this transplant the roots are cut quite hard which ill stimulate the trees to grow even more new roots closer to the trunk.
P1180251.JPG

P1180252.JPG


P1180255.JPG

P1180256.JPG


Like the previous ones, these have all gone into 11cm squat pots to grow on.

As I have said above, there is not really any 'best' time to transplant pine seedlings. I have another larger tray and will probably leave those ones growing together until next winter. There are lots of ways that all end up with good bonsai material.
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Re: Pine seedlings

Postby Grainer » November 19th, 2017, 5:43 pm

do you know where to get fresh seed? I am chasing some.
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Re: Pine seedlings

Postby shibui » November 19th, 2017, 6:00 pm

You can get fresh JBP seed off a JBP tree :whistle:

The hard bit is finding a tree that is producing cones :palm:

Sorry I can't help any more than that. Pine seed is not allowed into Aust now to try to prevent an exotic disease coming in and devastating our pine industry so it is hard to find a legal supplier. My seed came from a tree in our garden but I only got 5 cones last summer so not enough seeds to supply others, even over this side.
I have planted another one into the paddock hoping it will yield cones in a couple of years. Maybe more people should consider doing the same.
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Re: Pine seedlings

Postby Daluke » November 19th, 2017, 6:18 pm

I got a few small cones going. How longs it take until it’s ripe? Autumnish?
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Re: Pine seedlings

Postby shibui » November 19th, 2017, 6:50 pm

Pine cones actually take 18 months to mature. The ones that started on my red pine last spring are now starting to grow and look more like pine cones while tiny new female cones have appeared at the top of the spring candles.
They ripen mid - late summer and a hot, dry day will trigger the ripe cones to open up and drop the seed. You really need to watch carefully after they have reached full size and started to turn brown. At the first sign of cones opening pick them all and store in a paper bag or open box. As they dry they'll all open and release the seeds.
Outside on the trees when the cones get damp they close up again and look perfect but no seeds left inside :palm:
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Re: Pine seedlings

Postby Tambrand » November 19th, 2017, 10:44 pm

]Here is how we resolved the seed problem.
Brought seed from a Japanese seed pack.
Then using, I believe Shibui's technique, accidentally learned how to grow hard
wood cuttings. Only 1 out of 5 will take but, they do well.

Thanks again Shibui.
Laters.
Tambrand

jbps.jpg


The seed pack -

japanese-black-pine-bonsai-tree-seeds.jpg
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Re: Pine seedlings

Postby bonsaisensation » November 19th, 2017, 10:59 pm

Hi Neil,
Good to see someone else growing black pines from seeds. I also have good success this year with just under 800 seedling potted up. It's only the second time that I've had good success rate in the last 6 years or so. So every single one of them is precious.
On the side note, I am curious to find that liverwort is a bit of an issue for you too. I don't have trouble with them but one of my suppliers who is probably the biggest conifer grower in the country, struggles with it big time. I wonder could it have been the potting mix or water...... :lost:


Regards

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check out our new website:
http://bonsaisensation.com.au
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Re: Pine seedlings

Postby shibui » November 20th, 2017, 5:20 pm

My guess is that liverwort and water are related. I water quite heavily because of using a very open mix so the nursery is usually damp. I have been spraying with vinegar which kills the live plants but it soon comes back.
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Re: Pine seedlings

Postby shibui » January 27th, 2018, 6:55 pm

These seedlings have grown slowly but surely all spring and summer. The ones I pricked out as tiny seedlings are now about 10cm tall
jbp seedling cuttings 1.JPG


If I just leave them to grow they will get taller and taller but very few lower branches. I want my pine seedlings to have lots of really low branches because not only will that give me plenty of options if I want to prune the trunk shorter but those low branches will also thicken the trunk. The closer to the base I can get branches the better so now is a great time to prune these little trees.
They are very young so they can sprout new buds really easily. I cut them just above the lower needles.
jbp seedling cuttings 2.JPG


If you want to grow tall, thin pines with few branches and no taper just leave your seedlings to grow. I have also been experimenting with leaving the seedlings to grow longer then wiring the trunks and putting plenty of twists and bends into the trunks. That reduces the height and disguises the lack of taper and also gives lots of dynamic movement to the future tree.

Because it is hard to get pine seed I don't waste the bits that have been cut off. Being juvenile growth - you can see they have different needles to the normal mature foliage - they can strike roots quite easily.
First, carefully strip off the lower needles
jbp seedling cuttings 3.JPG


Dip the base in rooting hormone and put them into propagating mix
jbp seedling cuttings 6.JPG

then into the propagating area under mist. I expect around 80-90% of these to grow roots. I'll update as they progress.

The seedlings I pricked out later have also grown. Interesting that they seem to have a higher rate of branching on the trunks. I have also cut the taller of these to get even more lower branches.

jbp seedling cuttings 5.JPG
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Re: Pine seedlings

Postby Watto » January 28th, 2018, 6:37 am

Very interesting, thank you.
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Re: Pine seedlings

Postby SueBee » January 30th, 2018, 4:03 pm

Shibui ,I have two pines, one in ground and one in a pot...(both grew to about 50cm high in pot before I planted one in ground. I took the top off the one in the pot and it is developing good branching lower down now, but should I also chop the one in the ground? Neither is yet ready to call bonsai by a long way.
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Re: Pine seedlings

Postby shibui » January 30th, 2018, 6:15 pm

You have asked a simple question but the answer is complex. Without seeing your tree(s) it is hard to be specific.

The following applies to Black and Red pines - In general, Pines are reluctant to bud on bare wood. Pine needles have a life of 2-3 years then they go yellow and fall off. You can let pines grow as long as there are still healthy needles to prune back to so buds will form and new shoots start. If you want new shoots somewhere specific you need to prune before those needles get old and drop.
I generally let my developing pines grow for 2 years to get maximum thickening then prune right back to the lowest healthy needles (or wherever I want the new shoots to grow)

You may have noticed that pines that are growing well have a bare 'neck' at the base of each new shoot. Buds rarely form on that bare spot, even if it is quite young but new buds will grow at the base of the shoot, where it started growing. we use this when decandling more mature pines to get more branching, shorter shoots and smaller needles

There are a few pines that do reliably bud on bare wood - radiata and white pines are a couple I know of.
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Re: Pine seedlings

Postby SueBee » January 31st, 2018, 8:42 am

Thanks Shibui, mine are Pinus Picea which I know are not ideal for Bonsai but as I have half a dozen from a swap it seems worth having a go if just to learn on them.
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