Underwhelmed by sale days - what stock are you looking for?

[Rare plant Pat]

Hi everyone,

Bit of a poll that I would love your thoughts on . . .

I'm new to Bonsai - began last year. I've been to several sale days around Vic and have been a teeny bit underwhelmed by the stock being presented. Quality and variety seem a bit lacking.

I'm not saying quality isn't out there - I have been able to get some really nice trees from people like Tien and Mike S and a few senior club members. There have been enough JM and Tridents to choose something OK from and many JBP and some OK Chinese Elms.

I'm coming from a life-long interest in growing full size trees and enjoying the many rare and interesting trees that I've come across living in the ACT, Tasmania and Melbourne's Dandenong ranges. Am I missing something, or are we lacking representation of these many trees in the Aus Bonsai scene, at least in Vic?

My questions are for your thoughts are:

1. Should I be adjusting my expectations and what do the more experienced hands on the Australian scene think of the overall quality that we are being presented with?
1a. Everything is fine - get used to it young'un.
1b. Quality is out there, you just need to look for it.
1c. Yep there's a problem - what are you going to do about it Pat?

2. What does everyone want at a sale day?
2a. Good variety of starters?
2b. Greater variety of pre-Bonsai?
2c. Yamadori - lots of Yamadori
2d. Finished trees

3. What varieties are you craving?

Looking forward to your thoughts.

PAT

[TimS]

Good post indeed.

I have been looking to start doing forest/ group plantings with JM or TM, and have struggled to find anything at traditional bonsai nurseries other than sticks a couple of years old, individual trees that would be ideal in thickness but have had so many extravagant bends wired into them that they aren't suitable, or big fat stumps that need more years than i have left to live just to heal the scars all over them, let alone actually create a bonsai.

I was hoping to get along to a sale day when one happens next in the hope of finding some more options available, but from what you say it sounds pretty similar. I'm not expecting to find flawless material just ready to be thrown together into a world-class forest, just some decent rough stock in with trunk thickness greater than that of a pencil that hasn't been twisted more than a contortionist's pelvis.

I've reached the point that I've purchased large mother stock plants of cultivars i want, or decent size bonsai with the traits i'm looking for to propagate from. Sometimes the longer way of growing yourself is actually the method to growing what you need if no one else is doing it.

[shibui]

I sell pre bonsai and starters but I have not yet participated in any of the club sales yet. For me to attend a sales day in Melbourne involves nearly a full day selecting, marking and packing trees. 3-4 hour drive to any Melbourne venue, nearly an hour setup and similar afterward packup. After 3-4 hour return trip remaining plants need to be returned to the benches and watered. That is a lot of time and effort for a limited 2 hour opportunity to sell, even if the audience is exactly right.
Seems much better for me to continue to sell online with low overheads and also to contribute stock to club show sales tables (Bonsai North West 27-28 July this year) where we get 2 days of sales opportunities and almost the same buyers looking through the plants. Even better to take stock to Canberra Bonsai Society show (October 12 and 13 this year) where we can have a trade area at a good, fixed rate and sell our own stock so we can talk to buyers about what they want and the plants we produce.

If you are looking for rarer species as bonsai you may be disappointed Pat. Stands to reason that rarer species will be harder to get than commonly grown types whether you are looking for landscape or bonsai stock. That's what rare means - difficult to obtain.
If you are complaining about the lack of good bonsai stock, there are other factors at play. Growing good stock takes time. Quite a bit longer to grow good bonsai stock than the same tree as an advanced landscape specimen. My problem is demand exceeds supply. Good bonsai stock is not just churned out of a factory on order. My better pre-bonsai sells far quicker than I can grow replacements and those in the know are quick to take advantage of new offering each year. Sticks and starters are quick and easy but that's not what discerning bonsai growers want. Most are looking for large trunks with character, great taper and no scars but few really want to pay the real cost of producing that sort of stock.

Don't totally despair though. There is good stock to be had. You just need to be in the right place at the right time and be prepared to pay for the time and expertise that has gone into getting those trees to where they are.

Best of luck with the search.

[Raging Bull]

Spot on and well said shibui!

[PeachSlices]

i'm currently looking for a japanese black pine with a short thick trunk with unstyled branches.

just get what you like and what you see potential in.

i did 2 years in a row now buy all the shimpaku juniper on market day cause i liked shimpakus.

you pay for age

Simon

[MJL]

G'day Rare plant Pat,

I reckon you may ride a wonderful Penny Farthing and if my assumption is correct - you'll appreciate that good things are hard to find. Good hand-made things even harder. Good Bonsai - pre or other - even harder.

In answer your questions: 1b and 2b for me- the stock is out there, just tricky to find. What do they say, patience is a virtue.

Along with Shibui and other's wisdom, I will add that with time, you may find yourself in the gardens of some really experienced growers and there you may find gold or other precious items; it may cost but it's available nonetheless.

Depending on your specific want - it may be that a visit the Native Bonsai Clubs be beneficial or even specialist groups like the Satsuki Azalea interest groups. I'd also say that a Vietnamese Bonsai show I went to recently had some really interesting stock; outside the square stuff.

Also, have a quiet chat to some of the very experienced members of your club; they may have some ideas too.

Cheers,

Mark

PS - if it's not Penny Farthing Pat then ignore the first line.

[Rory]

Pat,

When I started my interest about 25 years ago, I had a deep admiration for natives. No-one was really into them, let alone selling them.
I eventually managed to feed my habit from buying stock from council nurseries.

Now I only grow natives and I have a passion for both uncommon / common Australian natives. I don't care if they are rare, but just try to find well suited material for bonsai and something different to experiment with.
My suggestion is to grow your own. I also get disheartened at sales days as I find myself scanning past all the fancy exotics to find natives.
But the community has come a long way since the days of mainly owning exotics.

Some of the Bonsai nurseries are now doing a good job at stocking natives.
There is a fabulous nursery on the Central Coast called 'The Wildflower Nursery' which specializes in rare and hard to find Australian Native trees/plants.
They aren't bonsai, but they have a great selection to start with.
Try searching for specialists like these if its particular natives you are after, or order seedlings online and grow them yourself.

I think most people usually like advanced raw material to shape themselves and make it their own design, myself included.
For me this is why I more often source material from native nurseries.

[pjames]

I live in a regional area so no sales day experience for me. I, myself, is on a hunt for good quality stock but I keep my expectations low so that I won't get disappointed. I always keep my eyes and ears open all the time for any private collections on sale because that’s where you get old quality trees.

I sell some of my trees regularly to upgrade to better quality materials. Hobbyist from Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane visits my place to buy some of my older stock trees so that I can purchase new ones.
This is my answer to first question: Quality is out there, you just need to look for it. Shibui is one example that produces good quality pre-bonsai.

[treeman]

1. Should I be adjusting my expectations and what do the more experienced hands on the Australian scene think of the overall quality that we are being presented with?

If you find good material, it is usually by chance. It takes 6 years to bring up pot grown material of high quality which - on average - is about 20mm in diameter. It takes about 10 years of ground growing for a good trunk on a pine, for example, with a diameter 50mm. That 10 years is spent only on the trunk. Creating a basic branch framework is done in the pot and will take a further 5 years and that will give you one ramification if you're lucky. In other words, it takes about 3 times as long to make good material as it takes to make ''standard'' material. On top of that, many people don't even recognize the difference. (personal experience)

Not many people are willing or able to produce high quality material. There's no money in it, they (I) do it for pleasure. The demand is not high enough so the supply will remain low. If you really desire world-class material, first assume that it is not available and do it yourself. In the meantime, if you stumble across some for sale, you will know what to do. Always look at the nebari and the lower part of the trunk. This is the most important part as it cannot be altered. This is where the future quality of the material is. The rest is meaningless unless you find or are looking for advanced trees. You also need the confidence that you can manipulate the material in such a way as to satisfy your desires.

[Rare plant Pat]

Thanks for all the feedback - I love the reality check that growing Bonsai gives me - no shortcuts to quality. I especially appreciate the open spirited way that the senior members of the community part with their hard earned wisdom.

Yes Mark, I have successfully combined Penny Farthings and Bonsai.

Here's one of my starters - sorry I can't divulge my source of these little numbers. You will notice some nice movement in the trunk with some taper, but a few problems with the apex. Pretty text book radial nebari, if a little too formal, but I find they tend to want to grow this way.

Pink penny.jpg

Heres one that's 54 inches after my rapid grow method. Not sure why they change colour like that, and you will note if you look carefully that I have unfortunately got some reverse taper in the spine. I found it's near impossible to fix this at this stage and the nebari has got more complex but finer - still got a way to go before I nail that area yet as well

My Penny.jpg

Back on topic.

Would be interested to know what people would like to see for sale, but can't find.

[MJL]

Ha! Well played. Nice hand made bike. [THUMBS UP SIGN]


Bonsai teaches me patience.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[melbrackstone]

Everything above is well said, patience is one of the major habits you'll have to acquire with all facets of bonsai. Even when you grow your own, you'll be selling off the ones that didn't work at the various sales that the clubs hold, or online, so maybe that's a bit of an indicator as to why you're seeing what you're seeing.

There are some groups on farcebook that might be of use if you're looking for more advanced stock or yamadori, otherwise being a member of a club is often useful when someone decides they don't want to look after their trees any more...often bonsai clubs are the first port of call in that case.

Good luck!

[shibui]

Would be interested to know what people would like to see for sale, but can't find.

As mentioned above, I grow trees rather than purchasing but there are some things I would like to see as bonsai here:

Really good Eucalyptrus camaldulensis bonsai. Such an iconic Aussie tree but seems to be difficult to produce bonsai versions of the ancient specimens found along inland rivers - really thick trunks, upright sub trunks, arching lower branches and a full, rounded canopy.
Gingko biloba with massive thick trunks with abundant chi chi and multiple leaders.

[TimS]

Put me down for a half dozen of those massive trunk Ginkgo

[shibui]

I would also love to see some large trunk junipers with few straight bits but no corkscrew either. Add some dead wood even better.