Requesting thoughts on POTS & SOIL - DEVELOPING BONSAI

[bki]

Size of pot is important. Too large will allow the fine roots to grow too far from your nebari, too small will impede the growth.

[Oliver Syd]

I agree that it is not necessary to start growing in 'bonsai mix' early. Trees are quite capable of moving from one type of soil to another.
There is a lot of research and science behind good potting mixes. Amateurs throwing together different components without any real knowledge of the subject run the risk of ending up with a less than idea potting mix.

Good nebari is the result of dedicated root pruning over a number of years. Shallow containers will not always produce better nebari. Shallow containers will probably slow down growth as the roots will dry out, overheat and cool far quicker than a large, deeper container unless you can mitigate those problems somehow.
Circling roots is not a problem for developing bonsai because we are regularly root pruning so any circling roots are removed. Air pruning containers were designed to facilitate root growth into the surrounding soil after plants are put into the ground and the idea has been misconstrued and misappropriated by would be bonsai growers.
It seems that many people are much happier to take a difficult path because it must be better if it is complicated
Feel free to make complicated boxes, grow containers and exotic mixes if it makes you happy. In my experience simple achieves the same results, sometimes even better results.

Hi Shibui,

Thanks for the reply!
Could you recommend a good potting mix for developing trees?

[MikeK]

Hi Shibui,

Thanks for the reply!
Could you recommend a good potting mix for developing trees?

I just use anything with the red 'ticks' on the bag from Bunnings or whatever nursery I'm at when I think I'll need some. I don't really bother with specialist native, azalea, etc. regardless of the tree species.

On potting mix bags, you'll either have no 'ticks' (cheapo stuff), black ‘ticks’ (meets AS3743 for regular potting mix) or red ‘ticks’ (meets AS3743 for premium). I find the price difference between black & red is negligible (if any), so I go with premium.

Potting-Mix.png

Red 'Ticks'

[greg27]

Interesting - I honestly had no idea there were standards for potting mix. Happy to see the stuff I've been using has the red ticks!

[Joshua]

It's better to use bonsai soil in training pots. It's good to get the tree into proper bonsai soil early.

The best mix for training just about any tree is straight potting mix that meets the Australian standard. In other words the stuff you buy at the nursery made by Debco etc with the 5 ticks. Using anything else is a waste of time and money and probably will give you inferior results.

Do you know if there's an equivalent of this in the EU?

[robb63]

Hi Oliver
I'm in your area and had similar questions not long ago.
The best quality potting mix I have found is in flower power Worriewood [professional mix] from memory.
Advertising claims its used by their growers and its about $15/per/30ltr bag.
All the others I have tried around our area are not quite as good
Standard black plastic pots are the cheapest and easiest way to grow trunks out off the ground.
Kimbriki Tip has a buy-back yard with a good stock of cheap pots in many sizes,
The closest source of pumice and zeolite is Enfield garden/pet supplies, look online.
The KIS [keep it simple] method I find works very well. Its good to save time, money and effort where possible.
All the dollars we don't spend unnecessarily can go towards buying more and better trees.
cheers

[treeman]

The best mix for training just about any tree is straight potting mix that meets the Australian standard. In other words the stuff you buy at the nursery made by Debco etc with the 5 ticks. Using anything else is a waste of time and money and probably will give you inferior results.

Do you know if there's an equivalent of this in the EU?
[/quote]

The company I buy from does not seem to export to EU:...........

''AGS Commercial products are now exported to a number of countries, including the United States, the United Kingdom, Singapore, New Zealand, South Africa and Japan''.

But there may be someone who does?

[pureheart]

one_bonsai » Today, 1:17 pm

Can you explain a bit further why bonsai soil will give you inferior results?

When you are developing trees you want the fastest and healthiest growth possible. Millions upon millions of plants are raised in the nursery industry every year with a view to doing just that. It's a matter of economics for them. When you make up your own mix, you need to know 1, if it has the correct air filled porosity, 2, if it has the correct water holding capacity, 3, if it has a good buffer capacity, 4 if it has the correct pH, 5, if it has all the required trace elements in the right balance - especially iron, 5, if it contains toxins which might restrict growth, 6, if it has an acceptable cation exchange capacity, 7, if it has an acceptable level of soluble nitrogen to get the plant going immediately, 8, if it has good wettability, 9, what the level of nitrogen draw-down might be (in other words how much N needs to be added for optimum growth.
So by using a AS mix all this has been done for you by law and all you need to do is (rarely) adjust the water holding capacity according to the depth of the container. Shallow containers need a courser mix so you can either add course material or sieve out some of the fines. Then it's just a matter of adding a controlled release fertilizer and water. So I'm not saying making your own growing mix WILL give you inferior results, only that it most likely will unless you really know what you're doing.

Hang on Mike …. Can you please clarify for me… are you saying that I shouldn’t be bothering doing my own mix of pumice for my bonsai (not in growing boxes) and I would get good healthy trees anyways with normal good potting soil mix???


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[MJL]

one_bonsai » Today, 1:17 pm

Can you explain a bit further why bonsai soil will give you inferior results?

When you are developing trees you want the fastest and healthiest growth possible. Millions upon millions of plants are raised in the nursery industry every year with a view to doing just that. It's a matter of economics for them. When you make up your own mix, you need to know 1, if it has the correct air filled porosity, 2, if it has the correct water holding capacity, 3, if it has a good buffer capacity, 4 if it has the correct pH, 5, if it has all the required trace elements in the right balance - especially iron, 5, if it contains toxins which might restrict growth, 6, if it has an acceptable cation exchange capacity, 7, if it has an acceptable level of soluble nitrogen to get the plant going immediately, 8, if it has good wettability, 9, what the level of nitrogen draw-down might be (in other words how much N needs to be added for optimum growth.
So by using a AS mix all this has been done for you by law and all you need to do is (rarely) adjust the water holding capacity according to the depth of the container. Shallow containers need a courser mix so you can either add course material or sieve out some of the fines. Then it's just a matter of adding a controlled release fertilizer and water. So I'm not saying making your own growing mix WILL give you inferior results, only that it most likely will unless you really know what you're doing.

Hi Pureheart,
Earlier in the thread Mike provided this explanation Re: soils. My take on the advice is that it’s around probability of success. For inexperienced growers - using quality potting mixes will provide a higher probability of a healthier plant than creating a custom mix. That said, for those that know what they are doing - fill your boots (and your pots) with you’re own mix.


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[greg27]

Hang on Mike …. Can you please clarify for me… are you saying that I shouldn’t be bothering doing my own mix of pumice for my bonsai (not in growing boxes) and I would get good healthy trees anyways with normal good potting soil mix???

The shallow and wide shape of bonsai pots affects soil drainage, which is why we need to add larger particles to improve drainage. Using normal potting mix in a bonsai pot will hold too much water, but there's nothing wrong with using normal potting mix in a more normal-shaped nursery pot for a tree in training.

I saw a comment on Facebook recently that explained drainage really well: put a sponge flat on your hand (emulating the wide, shallow shape of a bonsai pot) and soak it in water. Once water stops draining out, carefully tip the sponge so it's resting on the long side - more water will drain out. Tip it so it's resting on the short side (emulating the taller shape of a normal nursery pot) and even more water will drain out.

Yea physics!

[tgward]

can't find any pots or diatomite or perlite (quizzical looks when you ask about Akadama and Kanuma ) anywhere here in the Riverland so this years repot are with a cacti succulent mix with a lot of added coarse river sand and reused gravel . It'll be interesting how they perform this year.

[pureheart]

can't find any pots or diatomite or perlite (quizzical looks when you ask about Akadama and Kanuma ) anywhere here in the Riverland so this years repot are with a cacti succulent mix with a lot of added coarse river sand and reused gravel . It'll be interesting how they perform this year.

You can buy online https://www.petandgarden.com.au/pumice/ ... e-25l.html


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[pureheart]

Ok yes I know about drainage, that’s why I use a layer of 7 m akadama particles on the bottom, I just had a confused moment after mike’s statement...


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[terryb]

that’s why I use a layer of 7 m akadama particles on the bottom,
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More than one particle? Big pot

[pureheart]

that’s why I use a layer of 7 m akadama particles on the bottom,
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More than one particle? Big pot

Haha yes a big one lol


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