Requesting thoughts on POTS & SOIL - DEVELOPING BONSAI

Share your ideas on re-potting, potting mediums and fertilisers.
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Requesting thoughts on POTS & SOIL - DEVELOPING BONSAI

Post by Oliver Syd »

Hi All!

I would like to ask your opinions on the mentioned topics, pots and soil, but specifically for developing pre-bonsai after being pulled from the ground. I have only been practising bonsai for a year now, and with an upgrade in garden space (from a balcony) my horizons are greatly expanding! I feel fully committed to the art so plan on investing in some field grown pre-bonsai material.

1. I see there are many topics on soil, and it is a hotly debated subject with it being very subjective and preference based. Even so, the main question I have here is whether soil used for finished bonsai in bonsai pots is a good medium for further developing bonsai in training pots. Apologies if this has already been discussed but I can't seem to find anything specifically relating to developing trees in large containers.
I'm sure using bonsai mix for finished bonsai would indeed still work, I just wonder whether it is optimal when using a much larger container. Possibly there is an advantage of using organic vs inorganic or vice versa. Type of container may also play an important role due to exposure to air and drainage. This leads me to my second question...

2. Training pots... Looks here are not of any consequence and the main goal is to create the best environment possible! I'm still not sure why the bog standard black plastic pots are so widely used, seemingly poor drainage and little help to bring air into the substrate compared to other design like air pots/smart pots, fabric pots, pond baskets, colanders and even wood/poly trays.
For a tree with a trunk width of say 5cm to 10cm I would imagine a volume of anywhere from 15 litre - 25 litre would suffice to continue strong development of the tree (please correct me if I'm wrong). I plan to experiment with fabric pots but my main path is to build my own trays, a wood frame with sandwiched mesh on sides and bottom. The idea of air pruning and creating a dense root ball rather than a circling one seems highly beneficial, but may very well still be up for debate. This kind of tray should also make for great drainage, though frequent watering (more so than usual) during summer may be necessary. Making my own tray will allow me to create a shallow but wide pot setting myself up for a better nebari and spread of roots. Not only that, I think handmade wood trays will look rather nice too, I know I say it has little importance to me for developing trees, but thats not to say it wont be appreciated! Your thoughts on a wooden tray with mesh sides/bottom would be highly valued!

Some details regarding environment and trees:
Location - Northern Beaches, Sydney.
Trees - Conifers, deciduous and tropical, anything I can get my hands on basically!
Fert - osmocote slow release. During the growing season I also use seasol and gogo juice. I am contemplating introducing a mycorrhizae amendment for potting.
I'm 32 years old and now after a year of keeping a few trees am realising the true long term reality of bonsai. Now is my chance to get experimenting and garner a range of bonsai that can grow old with me. Not that the chance wont continually present itself of course!

All and any thoughts much appreciated, and again, many apologies if these topics have all been covered.
Happy growing!
Olly
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Re: Requesting thoughts on POTS & SOIL - DEVELOPING BONSAI

Post by one_bonsai »

It's better to use bonsai soil in training pots. It's good to get the tree into proper bonsai soil early.
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Re: Requesting thoughts on POTS & SOIL - DEVELOPING BONSAI

Post by Oliver Syd »

Thanks for the reply.
Any thoughts on organic vs inorganic for developing?
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Re: Requesting thoughts on POTS & SOIL - DEVELOPING BONSAI

Post by one_bonsai »

Oliver Syd wrote: July 16th, 2020, 11:29 am Any thoughts on organic vs inorganic for developing?
If the tree is in training it shouldn't really matter that much. Personally I like to train trees in the bonsai soil that they're going to be in when they're moved to a bonsai pot. In other words the sooner you can get trees out of potting mix and into proper bonsai soil the better. But others will have different methods.
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Re: Requesting thoughts on POTS & SOIL - DEVELOPING BONSAI

Post by melbrackstone »

Hi Olly

I can only tell you about my experience, and that's inorganic medium works best for me. It stops the curl grubs getting into the mix and eating the roots, and allows me to water the plants every day. I use combinations of Akadama, scoria, diatomite, zeolite, and lava, depending on what's available. If I use any inorganic material, it's coir, and only in small amounts. A top dressing of grated up sphagnum moss helps.

As for growing in training pots, there are also many different options for you there. Growing them on a larger pot is a good way to get thicker trunks, but once you have the thickness there, (or close to,) it's good to start bringing the roots back into finer branching, because that is generally the best way to get the branches into secondary and tertiary ramification. A good quality tree will be mirrored under the ground, so as long as you're using a mix that helps the roots to keep ramifying, you'll be able to start refining the top of your tree.

Many people grow directly into the ground, which gives you fast, coarse growth. The next step could be a large air pot on top of the ground, which makes for easier lifting, and then as you look for finer growth, you can put it into a smaller pot in good quality mix, on top of another large pot, and finally going into a smaller pot can work well. Growing the tree quickly can mean you have large scars that might need a decade or more to heal and close up, so you also need to weigh that up when choosing your method. Each species handles the different techniques differently also....there are so many variables, it's very difficult to give you straight guidelines.

I would suggest you just start experimenting with your trees, using the info you can find here, or ask for specific info for the tree you're trying to grow.
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Re: Requesting thoughts on POTS & SOIL - DEVELOPING BONSAI

Post by treeman »

one_bonsai wrote: July 16th, 2020, 10:47 am It's better to use bonsai soil in training pots. It's good to get the tree into proper bonsai soil early.
The best mix for training just about any tree is straight potting mix that meets the Australian standard. In other words the stuff you buy at the nursery made by Debco etc with the 5 ticks. Using anything else is a waste of time and money and probably will give you inferior results.
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Re: Requesting thoughts on POTS & SOIL - DEVELOPING BONSAI

Post by one_bonsai »

treeman wrote: July 16th, 2020, 12:56 pm The best mix for training just about any tree is straight potting mix that meets the Australian standard. In other words the stuff you buy at the nursery made by Debco etc with the 5 ticks. Using anything else is a waste of time and money and probably will give you inferior results.
I tend to use old bonsai soil for trees in training so there's no cost involved. I'm sure what you're saying is correct. Can you explain a bit further why bonsai soil will give you inferior results?
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Re: Requesting thoughts on POTS & SOIL - DEVELOPING BONSAI

Post by melbrackstone »

https://bit.ly/2rollingpin This shows an easy to follow explanation of how to change what they call a rolling pin tree into a tapered bonsai. At a guess I'd say you're looking at 12 - 15 years to get all that taper, (in your growing climate.) Growing trees in deeper, well drained mix will give you faster growth and quicker healing...

Once you're ready to start refining branches, the tree will give you better results in a smaller container.
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Re: Requesting thoughts on POTS & SOIL - DEVELOPING BONSAI

Post by MJL »

Geez you come up with some good links MelB. Thanks.

Intrigued at Treeman’s comments too. My guess at what’s behind the comment is that a 5-star potting mix will contain nutrients and water retentive properties that make it more foolproof than other media that might require more diligence on fertiliser etc.... plus it will be loose enough to get good, healthy root growth ... and so, for the general layman - better chance a better results and then, when required - a specialist mix can be applied accordingly .... is my take close to the mark?


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Re: Requesting thoughts on POTS & SOIL - DEVELOPING BONSAI

Post by treeman »

one_bonsai » Today, 1:17 pm

Can you explain a bit further why bonsai soil will give you inferior results?

When you are developing trees you want the fastest and healthiest growth possible. Millions upon millions of plants are raised in the nursery industry every year with a view to doing just that. It's a matter of economics for them. When you make up your own mix, you need to know 1, if it has the correct air filled porosity, 2, if it has the correct water holding capacity, 3, if it has a good buffer capacity, 4 if it has the correct pH, 5, if it has all the required trace elements in the right balance - especially iron, 5, if it contains toxins which might restrict growth, 6, if it has an acceptable cation exchange capacity, 7, if it has an acceptable level of soluble nitrogen to get the plant going immediately, 8, if it has good wettability, 9, what the level of nitrogen draw-down might be (in other words how much N needs to be added for optimum growth.
So by using a AS mix all this has been done for you by law and all you need to do is (rarely) adjust the water holding capacity according to the depth of the container. Shallow containers need a courser mix so you can either add course material or sieve out some of the fines. Then it's just a matter of adding a controlled release fertilizer and water. So I'm not saying making your own growing mix WILL give you inferior results, only that it most likely will unless you really know what you're doing.
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Re: Requesting thoughts on POTS & SOIL - DEVELOPING BONSAI

Post by Oliver Syd »

melbrackstone wrote: July 16th, 2020, 12:38 pm Hi Olly

I can only tell you about my experience, and that's inorganic medium works best for me. It stops the curl grubs getting into the mix and eating the roots, and allows me to water the plants every day. I use combinations of Akadama, scoria, diatomite, zeolite, and lava, depending on what's available. If I use any inorganic material, it's coir, and only in small amounts. A top dressing of grated up sphagnum moss helps.

As for growing in training pots, there are also many different options for you there. Growing them on a larger pot is a good way to get thicker trunks, but once you have the thickness there, (or close to,) it's good to start bringing the roots back into finer branching, because that is generally the best way to get the branches into secondary and tertiary ramification. A good quality tree will be mirrored under the ground, so as long as you're using a mix that helps the roots to keep ramifying, you'll be able to start refining the top of your tree.

Many people grow directly into the ground, which gives you fast, coarse growth. The next step could be a large air pot on top of the ground, which makes for easier lifting, and then as you look for finer growth, you can put it into a smaller pot in good quality mix, on top of another large pot, and finally going into a smaller pot can work well. Growing the tree quickly can mean you have large scars that might need a decade or more to heal and close up, so you also need to weigh that up when choosing your method. Each species handles the different techniques differently also....there are so many variables, it's very difficult to give you straight guidelines.

I would suggest you just start experimenting with your trees, using the info you can find here, or ask for specific info for the tree you're trying to grow.
Hello,

Thanks for the reply! Looks like the verdicts still out on soil, I thought as much but couldnt help stir the pot! Must say, them curlies are pretty prolific round these parts, Kookaburras not complaining on repot day though.
I hope my homemade wood grow boxes with mesh will work similarly to air pots, I cant see why they wouldnt.
I have both patience and time so large scars wont bother me too much.

Thanks!
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Re: Requesting thoughts on POTS & SOIL - DEVELOPING BONSAI

Post by Oliver Syd »

melbrackstone wrote: July 16th, 2020, 4:09 pm https://bit.ly/2rollingpin This shows an easy to follow explanation of how to change what they call a rolling pin tree into a tapered bonsai. At a guess I'd say you're looking at 12 - 15 years to get all that taper, (in your growing climate.) Growing trees in deeper, well drained mix will give you faster growth and quicker healing...

Once you're ready to start refining branches, the tree will give you better results in a smaller container.
Great diagram. looks like the go!
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Re: Requesting thoughts on POTS & SOIL - DEVELOPING BONSAI

Post by Oliver Syd »

treeman wrote: July 16th, 2020, 5:32 pm
one_bonsai » Today, 1:17 pm

Can you explain a bit further why bonsai soil will give you inferior results?

When you are developing trees you want the fastest and healthiest growth possible. Millions upon millions of plants are raised in the nursery industry every year with a view to doing just that. It's a matter of economics for them. When you make up your own mix, you need to know 1, if it has the correct air filled porosity, 2, if it has the correct water holding capacity, 3, if it has a good buffer capacity, 4 if it has the correct pH, 5, if it has all the required trace elements in the right balance - especially iron, 5, if it contains toxins which might restrict growth, 6, if it has an acceptable cation exchange capacity, 7, if it has an acceptable level of soluble nitrogen to get the plant going immediately, 8, if it has good wettability, 9, what the level of nitrogen draw-down might be (in other words how much N needs to be added for optimum growth.
So by using a AS mix all this has been done for you by law and all you need to do is (rarely) adjust the water holding capacity according to the depth of the container. Shallow containers need a courser mix so you can either add course material or sieve out some of the fines. Then it's just a matter of adding a controlled release fertilizer and water. So I'm not saying making your own growing mix WILL give you inferior results, only that it most likely will unless you really know what you're doing.
How about a potting mix from a specialist bonsai nursery? Guess that boils down to price, but like you mention above here, in shallow containers the requirements change. With a deeper training grow box possibly specialist bonsai potting mix is not necessary.
Thanks for the thoughts!
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Re: Requesting thoughts on POTS & SOIL - DEVELOPING BONSAI

Post by one_bonsai »

The reason I don't like growing in potting mix is that there's a lot of old potting mix that you have to remove when transferring the tree into a bonsai pot, causing more root disturbance.
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Re: Requesting thoughts on POTS & SOIL - DEVELOPING BONSAI

Post by shibui »

I agree that it is not necessary to start growing in 'bonsai mix' early. Trees are quite capable of moving from one type of soil to another.
There is a lot of research and science behind good potting mixes. Amateurs throwing together different components without any real knowledge of the subject run the risk of ending up with a less than idea potting mix.

Good nebari is the result of dedicated root pruning over a number of years. Shallow containers will not always produce better nebari. Shallow containers will probably slow down growth as the roots will dry out, overheat and cool far quicker than a large, deeper container unless you can mitigate those problems somehow.
Circling roots is not a problem for developing bonsai because we are regularly root pruning so any circling roots are removed. Air pruning containers were designed to facilitate root growth into the surrounding soil after plants are put into the ground and the idea has been misconstrued and misappropriated by would be bonsai growers.
It seems that many people are much happier to take a difficult path because it must be better if it is complicated :palm:
Feel free to make complicated boxes, grow containers and exotic mixes if it makes you happy. In my experience simple achieves the same results, sometimes even better results.
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