Planting in ground

[Abarnes93]

Hey everyone,

I have recently moved into a house and can finally look into planting some smaller trees in the ground. I'm looking at black pines, a Japanese maple and a juniper currently to thicken them up. is now an okay time to do it and leave root ball? I am in Sydney. should i also use any particular soil around them? Should I remove them once a year and trim to roots?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

[kcpoole]

Yep weill be fine to plant out now in Sydney
I just use my normal Bonsai mix to back fill with

Ken

[Abarnes93]

Awesome thanks for that hoping to it this weekend and see some growth towards spring

[shibui]

I suppose it depends on the results you want.
If you only want a fatter trunk it does not matter when or where you plant but I feel that good bonsai is far more than just a fat trunk.
Nebari (radial surface root system) is a big part of quality bonsai. Good nebari comes from regular, good root pruning. Just slip potting a commercial tree into the ground will give you a thick trunk and a couple of thick, probably circling roots. Not my idea of good nebari. Waiting until spring will not lose much (very little growth over winter) but will give you the chance to do a thorough root prune and root arrangement which will pay off in future nebari. Regular root pruning also produces a far denser, better ramified root system.
Taper is another big factor in good bonsai. Just planting and letting it grow will give you a fat trunk but rarely good taper. A big chop after fast grow will take years to heal and you'll spend years growing a new apex, branches and ramification. Regular chops may slow trunk thickening (I'm yet to actually confirm how much) but will definitely reduce the following refinement stage. Overall I'm finding that regular root pruning and regular trunk chopping saves time overall.

How often depends on how fast the species grows and how good your growing conditions are. I dig and root prune and prune trident maples every year now. JM and Chinese elms get done every 2-3 years JBP and junipers get some pruning above ground most years but only dug every 3-5 years as root prunin definitely slows growth far more than other species.

Unfortunately there's no one solution that suits all plants in all areas. you'll have to work out what produces the results you want in the conditions you have.

[Stevie_B]

I am only now realizing the truth of what shibui has been saying and what I haven’t been focused on, mainly through lack of horticultural understanding. I have some lovely thick trunked trees that have no roots to speak of. To put it in gym terms - I have been missing leg day for years.

I sometimes wish there was a ‘fundamentals’ page to this forum to be able to refer back to. Especially for those of us who are (at least trying to) learning the science and the art at the same time.

[HarleyD]

I sometimes wish there was a ‘fundamentals’ page to this forum to be able to refer back to. Especially for those of us who are (at least trying to) learning the science and the art at the same time.

I completely agree! I often have simple questions but struggle to find the answer in amongst everything else. The wiki link at the top of the page seems to have been broken for as long as I've been surfing the forum

[wrcmad]

I suppose it depends on the results you want.

100% agree with Shibui.
If you just plant in the ground and let the tree go, you will end up with a large garden plant that is often not conducive or helpful for development into a quality bonsai. The idea of planting in the ground is to "speed up" development, but the development work still needs to be done, and as the tree is growing so fast, this will entail more work than a tree that is pot grown.

It took me two decades to figure out what to focus on when ground growing stock, and it is different for each species (for me).
Here are some pointers that I use (hope it is helpful):

Deciduous (especially tridents):
No.1 focus is nebari. - I usually set the direction of the nebari before planting in the ground at about 3 years old. This involves annual severe root pruning from seedling to 3yo to establish radial roots before ground planting. I even discard trees at this stage that are not playing ball, as they will be difficult to rectify. Once in the ground, lift every year and shave back root system to maintain radial, shallow spreading roots (I also lift elms every year). Fill gaps with root grafts before replanting for another growing season. If you fail to lift every year, one single running root that excessively thickens can ruin the nebari.
No.2 focus is taper. Failure to form taper defeats the purpose of ground growing. I cut back most deciduous every year to the lowest possible node to guarantee a healthy rebudding leader - after one year in the ground, the chopped leader of a trident is usually about an inch thick. If this cut is shaped nicely, the scar is usually healed in 2 years whilst in the ground and developing.
No.3 focus is maintaining the lower branches - you will need them later. I keep them well pruned and ramified to prevent over-thickening, but maintain a healthy amount of foliage so they don't die back (energy balance).

JBP:
No.1 focus is maintaining lower branches. - pines grow so fast in the ground that girth will look after itself, but failure to preserve lower branches will result in a thick, spindly tree that is not conducive to quality bonsai. Achieve this maintenance by decandling, ramifying and maintaining foliage on the lower branches without letting them thicken too much, but maintaining a healthy amount of foliage (energy balance).
No.2 focus is planning the next trunk chop - you need trunk chops for taper. I let the sacrificial leader grow until it is the thickness I desire - 1, 2 or maybe 3 years. However, I never let the sacrificial leader grow before I have established a bud or node to cut back to for the subsequent chop (planning ahead). Sometimes this requires decandling of the leader to establish this budding and short node length for the next cut site before I let it run, which will slow development for that year. But if you don't do this, down the track the node length will be too long to enable establishment of taper and branching close together, and you will end up with a tall, sparse tree, rather than a tapered, compact, fat tree.
No.3 focus is the roots - As with maples, I spend about 3 years establishing a good root system before planting in the ground. For JBP, this is less about nebari, and more about establishing a "shin" (fibrous root system directly below the trunk). I then plant inside a colendar in the ground, in a good porous soil mix, as it makes it much easier to lift later on. I don't lift pines every year - in fact, I don't lift them at all during ground development. The reason for this is that pines are the fastest growing species in the ground, and pruning development (sometimes quite harsh pruning) is needed to keep them in check. If you lift the pines, the root pruning in the same year as branch pruning, decandling and needle plucking for balance will cause it to suffer. So I prefer to redevelop a nice fibrous root system once they are lifted (even if that is say after 10 years in the ground).

Junipers:
I don't ground grow them, as I have observed little difference in speed of development in the ground or in a pot.
Either way, after 10 or 15 years of development, you will most likely need to graft branches to establish a bonsai from the developed trunk anyway.
I don't find them as rewarding to develop as other species, as they are SLOW to gain trunk girth. I get about 2 inches of girth every 10 years . I can get this girth in less than half the time with elms, tridents or JBP.
That is likely why the Japanese only use collected material that are hundreds of years old.

Hope this helps.
Cheers

[Abarnes93]

I suppose it depends on the results you want.
If you only want a fatter trunk it does not matter when or where you plant but I feel that good bonsai is far more than just a fat trunk.
Nebari (radial surface root system) is a big part of quality bonsai. Good nebari comes from regular, good root pruning. Just slip potting a commercial tree into the ground will give you a thick trunk and a couple of thick, probably circling roots. Not my idea of good nebari. Waiting until spring will not lose much (very little growth over winter) but will give you the chance to do a thorough root prune and root arrangement which will pay off in future nebari. Regular root pruning also produces a far denser, better ramified root system.
Taper is another big factor in good bonsai. Just planting and letting it grow will give you a fat trunk but rarely good taper. A big chop after fast grow will take years to heal and you'll spend years growing a new apex, branches and ramification. Regular chops may slow trunk thickening (I'm yet to actually confirm how much) but will definitely reduce the following refinement stage. Overall I'm finding that regular root pruning and regular trunk chopping saves time overall.

How often depends on how fast the species grows and how good your growing conditions are. I dig and root prune and prune trident maples every year now. JM and Chinese elms get done every 2-3 years JBP and junipers get some pruning above ground most years but only dug every 3-5 years as root prunin definitely slows growth far more than other species.

Unfortunately there's no one solution that suits all plants in all areas. you'll have to work out what produces the results you want in the conditions you have.

Thanks so much for your advice shibui.

I am definately wanting to thicken them up. One of the Japanese maples I have had for about 2 years in a big pot. It has been growing but not too quickly and I want to hVe it in the front yard for a display but to also thicken up. That’s great advice to chop often to create taper. I have bought 2 trident maples off you and would love foe them to turn out similar. (I don’t think I have the skills yet tho) I will wait till spring I think then I will be able to do a big root prune and also set the roots to make nice nebari. I also have a root over rock trident I have been letting grow for over a year now and will chop soon and start a new leader. The juniper and black pine I will also put into the ground and will look to be shaping and trimming while in the ground but for them I will leave the roots aside longer as you have said. Really appreciate the taking the time to reply

[Abarnes93]

I suppose it depends on the results you want.

100% agree with Shibui.
If you just plant in the ground and let the tree go, you will end up with a large garden plant that is often not conducive or helpful for development into a quality bonsai. The idea of planting in the ground is to "speed up" development, but the development work still needs to be done, and as the tree is growing so fast, this will entail more work than a tree that is pot grown.

It took me two decades to figure out what to focus on when ground growing stock, and it is different for each species (for me).
Here are some pointers that I use (hope it is helpful):

Deciduous (especially tridents):
No.1 focus is nebari. - I usually set the direction of the nebari before planting in the ground at about 3 years old. This involves annual severe root pruning from seedling to 3yo to establish radial roots before ground planting. I even discard trees at this stage that are not playing ball, as they will be difficult to rectify. Once in the ground, lift every year and shave back root system to maintain radial, shallow spreading roots (I also lift elms every year). Fill gaps with root grafts before replanting for another growing season. If you fail to lift every year, one single running root that excessively thickens can ruin the nebari.
No.2 focus is taper. Failure to form taper defeats the purpose of ground growing. I cut back most deciduous every year to the lowest possible node to guarantee a healthy rebudding leader - after one year in the ground, the chopped leader of a trident is usually about an inch thick. If this cut is shaped nicely, the scar is usually healed in 2 years whilst in the ground and developing.
No.3 focus is maintaining the lower branches - you will need them later. I keep them well pruned and ramified to prevent over-thickening, but maintain a healthy amount of foliage so they don't die back (energy balance).

JBP:
No.1 focus is maintaining lower branches. - pines grow so fast in the ground that girth will look after itself, but failure to preserve lower branches will result in a thick, spindly tree that is not conducive to quality bonsai. Achieve this maintenance by decandling, ramifying and maintaining foliage on the lower branches without letting them thicken too much, but maintaining a healthy amount of foliage (energy balance).
No.2 focus is planning the next trunk chop - you need trunk chops for taper. I let the sacrificial leader grow until it is the thickness I desire - 1, 2 or maybe 3 years. However, I never let the sacrificial leader grow before I have established a bud or node to cut back to for the subsequent chop (planning ahead). Sometimes this requires decandling of the leader to establish this budding and short node length for the next cut site before I let it run, which will slow development for that year. But if you don't do this, down the track the node length will be too long to enable establishment of taper and branching close together, and you will end up with a tall, sparse tree, rather than a tapered, compact, fat tree.
No.3 focus is the roots - As with maples, I spend about 3 years establishing a good root system before planting in the ground. For JBP, this is less about nebari, and more about establishing a "shin" (fibrous root system directly below the trunk). I then plant inside a colendar in the ground, in a good porous soil mix, as it makes it much easier to lift later on. I don't lift pines every year - in fact, I don't lift them at all during ground development. The reason for this is that pines are the fastest growing species in the ground, and pruning development (sometimes quite harsh pruning) is needed to keep them in check. If you lift the pines, the root pruning in the same year as branch pruning, decandling and needle plucking for balance will cause it to suffer. So I prefer to redevelop a nice fibrous root system once they are lifted (even if that is say after 10 years in the ground).

Junipers:
I don't ground grow them, as I have observed little difference in speed of development in the ground or in a pot.
Either way, after 10 or 15 years of development, you will most likely need to graft branches to establish a bonsai from the developed trunk anyway.
I don't find them as rewarding to develop as other species, as they are SLOW to gain trunk girth. I get about 2 inches of girth every 10 years . I can get this girth in less than half the time with elms, tridents or JBP.
That is likely why the Japanese only use collected material that are hundreds of years old.

Hope this helps.
Cheers

Thanks so much foe your reply I appreciate it. So much knowledge it’s such good information.
I’ll definately be waiting till early spring to work on the maple and sort out the roots to get it ready foe the ground. And definately will try get some low branches I believe it has 2 low branches currently which I’ll definately keep and be looking to do a big trunk chop end of the year too.

The black pine I am wanting to do in the ground is a couple of years old and has been worked on y a bonsai nursery for a while it’s only about 25cm tall I will try post a photo of it tomorow. It has good shape I just want it a lot thicker and with better taper. I didn’t know that they were the fastest to grow in the ground that’s good to know. Will be interesting to see how much it can grow in a season.

And junipers are definately slow I have hardly seen any growth in it thickness wise so was hopping to have it in the ground to thicken a bit faster. It has had initial styling and will need to see how it goes growing to go from there.

Might also look into doing an elm as well or another style of black pine to have some variety.

Thanks heaps again foe the advice

[Abarnes93]

I am only now realizing the truth of what shibui has been saying and what I haven’t been focused on, mainly through lack of horticultural understanding. I have some lovely thick trunked trees that have no roots to speak of. To put it in gym terms - I have been missing leg day for years.

I sometimes wish there was a ‘fundamentals’ page to this forum to be able to refer back to. Especially for those of us who are (at least trying to) learning the science and the art at the same time.

So true there is so much to learn I have only been doing it for a couple of years but learning so much

[GavinG]

A couple of things haven't been mentioned:

Ground-growing is a very good way of getting dynamic, tapering movement in the trunk, if you plant it at a different angle each year. Make sure your changes of angle are three-dimensional, not just side-to-side. It's much easier to heal and blend in a sizeable cut if there is an angle at that point in the trunk - and it's often more interesting!

Second: no mention of natives so far. There are a few issues. Eucalypts, from the few I've tried, send two roots down to China, and often die when you dig them. A useful tactic is to grow them in large-ish pots on the ground - you can control the root base well, and roots that grow into the ground with fatten the trunk well, but you can monitor the process and cut those that seem to be taking over, through the season. Not too neat at the base of the trunk please, and a bit wild in the trunk lines would help.

Callistemon and Melaleuca should be OK to treat like tridents, but you would lift and trim each year a bit later - maybe September in Sydney, even October in Canberra, after the growth has started - exactly the opposite of what you've been taught! I've had a couple of M. styphelioides grow too strongly in the roots in a season - maybe tie roots to a tile to keep some kind of control.

Kunzeas, Baeackeas and the like should be OK to ground grow, but I haven't tried it. Leptospermum are dodgy to dig from the wild, in my experience - any time you've done hard work on Lepto roots, leave them in a water bath fro the next month or two.

Casuarina family and Callitris should be OK to ground grow, and particularly A. torulosa and A. littoralis can make wonderful dynamic trunks if you get beyond the straight and obvious.

Also, please turn off your auto-quote! It's not necessary in this context.

Good luck,

Gavin

[Rory]

Second: no mention of natives so far. There are a few issues. Eucalypts, from the few I've tried, send two roots down to China, and often die when you dig them. A useful tactic is to grow them in large-ish pots on the ground - you can control the root base well, and roots that grow into the ground with fatten the trunk well, but you can monitor the process and cut those that seem to be taking over, through the season. Not too neat at the base of the trunk please, and a bit wild in the trunk lines would help.

haha, so true. I concur with this advice. Accurate as!

Callistemon and Melaleuca should be OK to treat like tridents, but you would lift and trim each year a bit later - maybe September in Sydney, even October in Canberra, after the growth has started - exactly the opposite of what you've been taught! I've had a couple of M. styphelioides grow too strongly in the roots in a season - maybe tie roots to a tile to keep some kind of control.

I would add a disclaimer to wait until any new growth has hardened off before you cut roots though. From previous experience, if you cut roots soon after the new growth has appeared it sometimes can wither and die off.

Kunzeas, Baeackeas and the like should be OK to ground grow, but I haven't tried it. Leptospermum are dodgy to dig from the wild, in my experience - any time you've done hard work on Lepto roots, leave them in a water bath fro the next month or two.

Casuarina family and Callitris should be OK to ground grow, and particularly A. torulosa and A. littoralis can make wonderful dynamic trunks if you get beyond the straight and obvious.

Exactly. I never go hard on Letpo roots anymore. Its not worth it.

[Abarnes93]

[quote=GavinG post_id=293421 time=1648437319 user_id=1555]
A couple of things haven't been mentioned:

Ground-growing is a very good way of getting dynamic, tapering movement in the trunk, if you plant it at a different angle each year. Make sure your changes of angle are three-dimensional, not just side-to-side. It's much easier to heal and blend in a sizeable cut if there is an angle at that point in the trunk - and it's often more interesting!

Second: no mention of natives so far. There are a few issues. Eucalypts, from the few I've tried, send two roots down to China, and often die when you dig them. A useful tactic is to grow them in large-ish pots on the ground - you can control the root base well, and roots that grow into the ground with fatten the trunk well, but you can monitor the process and cut those that seem to be taking over, through the season. Not too neat at the base of the trunk please, and a bit wild in the trunk lines would help.

Callistemon and Melaleuca should be OK to treat like tridents, but you would lift and trim each year a bit later - maybe September in Sydney, even October in Canberra, after the growth has started - exactly the opposite of what you've been taught! I've had a couple of M. styphelioides grow too strongly in the roots in a season - maybe tie roots to a tile to keep some kind of control.

Kunzeas, Baeackeas and the like should be OK to ground grow, but I haven't tried it. Leptospermum are dodgy to dig from the wild, in my experience - any time you've done hard work on Lepto roots, leave them in a water bath fro the next month or two.

Casuarina family and Callitris should be OK to ground grow, and particularly A. torulosa and A. littoralis can make wonderful dynamic trunks if you get beyond the straight and obvious.

Also, please turn off your auto-quote! It's not necessary in this context.

Good luck,

Gavin
[/quote]


Thanks heaps for the info gavin, not too sure how to turn off the auto quote but I’ll figure it out I’m new to this forum. ThTs a good idea to plant on different angles on different years. I also haven’t looked into many natives but could be something I’ll look into appreciate it

[shibui]

I've been trialling some natives in the ground.
Results so far indicate:
Banksia serrata and integrifolia grow great and very easy to transplant. This year I dug some very big trunks (bigger than planned because they did not get dug last year ) All have survived transplant with huge root reduction as have most in the past. I've tried digging then chopping the tops and also chopping tops a few weeks before digging. Does not seem to be much difference in survival rates. As mentioned earlier dig in late spring in my area.

Leptospermum 'Aphrodite' 2 survived from 2 so far even with quite severe root trim.

Melaleuca sp (possibly armillaris?) which I thought should be very tough. Only 1 tried but the top has died. I now have suckers from the roots though so it has not died completely but not much use when you want a thick trunk. Not a big enough sample to generalise from.

Melaleuca teretifolia - 1 try 1 fail after transplant

Kunzea parvifolia - several tried some years ago. Only 1 managed to survive transplant then took several years to recover properly. One side of the trunk died in the process.

[terryb]

Casuarina family and Callitris should be OK to ground grow, and particularly A. torulosa and A. littoralis can make wonderful dynamic trunks if you get beyond the straight and obvious.

I have had success ground growing Casuarina cunninghami by planting in a colander and then sinking that in the ground, which you can see here viewtopic.php?p=287745#p287745 under the heading "Bonus material". The roots that emerge from the colander are constricted when they get too big so you end up with lots of thin roots which makes it quite easy to dig and keeps the base compact.

I've had little success transplanting Callitris even from big pots. Maybe I let them get too root bound