Diatomite and similar properties testing

[Mojo Moyogi]

Brett,
I read the article, it does not mention Attapulgite Kitty Litter. It mentions a kitty litter that is made from fired diatomite. I am not sure if there is fired diatomite kitty litter available in Australia. It also makes a point of the importance of hardness of particles, although the tests mentioned, where one is to soak the kitty litter in water and then freeze it and allow it to thaw as a means of determining long-term durability is hillarious. My own trees have their soil frozen and thawed dozens of time per year and it is way colder in the UK, yet Mr Harrington believes that this testing is effective. Perhaps effective in determining durability on the day of the test, but not over the working life of a bonsai soil.

While Mr Harrington is known in the bonsai world and is perhaps well credentialled, I would be inclined to mostly disregard as evidence, the parts of the article that have been contributed by readers of his website, on the basis that it is impossible to know the extent of their real world experience.

I think you may have misunderstood the point of what I was saying and perhaps the some of the principles it is based on. What I was trying to offer this thread has been the result of several years of trial and error, by myself and by others, the results of which I have seen 1st hand.

Cheers,
Mojo

[kcpoole]

I have never tried Kitty Litter, but will back up what Mojo is saying re Diatomite

I have had a sample of Maidenwell Soaking in a glass Jar of water now for 4 years, and its performance ( hardness and strenght) is identical to to brand new stuff.
I have also a sample of Mt Sylvia Diatomite in a Glass Jar full of water now for 2 years and it is also the same as the day it went in there.

I assume that Diatomite base kitty litters will be similar, but I have never seen any in Oz, on the Attapulgite ones. As i can get Diatomite which is a known product for the same cost as KL which there is some confusion over I never bothered.
Grab a handful of it a stick it in a jar of water, Agitate it once a week or so and in 6 months check it. If it is still hard then let us know.
As far as I can tell, no one has done this simple experiment with it and been successful.


Ken

[Bretts]

HI Mojo it was mainly the idea that you put forward that kitty litters are made for cats to piss in and and therefore will not work as Bonsai soil but only should be used for painting your face!. I saw the article from Harry as his experience with added notes from readers that I took as leads to find something that worked in your own country.
The guy that did the freezing and thawing was actually with the same aquatic mix that we now use so in fact it was great advice. In any event I don't think it is fiar to say that anything labeled as kitty litter is no good as diatomite is also labeled as a kitty litter.
Also I know chandlers did not work for you but I think you also know that it has worked for me. In fact just as you have several years of trial and error so have I and I have shown the great results I have had with it in my soil mix.
As I have stated in the past I don't think it will last 5 years but as my stock is young and needs re potting at least every 2 years it has worked great when I have used it.
I have bought many bags and never found any variation in quality.
I tend to think that when two people get conflicting results then it is a good idea to consider why they are getting different results instead of labeling their results as balderdash! I am curious why chandlers has not worked for some others are you not curious why it has worked for me?

[Bretts]

Hi KC, That idea was over my head when I tried that test I didn't think to put it in a jar with a lid and got bored with refilling the container with water when it dried out after a couple of months
I have some chandlers at the moment I will make up a couple of jars one with chandlers and one with akadama. Recently I read some where that the softer akadama actually has a horticultural advantage in some instances over the harder stuff. Can't remember details but in certain circumstances it seems there is an advantage so although I had concluded that Diatomite is a superior medium to ChandlersI now wonder if it has it's place just as softer Akadama does.
It did a great job on the roots of a English elm that's roots where a little poorly two years ago when I got it. It is due for a repott come spring so I will make sure I take pictures!

I only read that the other day I will try to find it to clarify when the softer akadama is an advantage!

Sorry about your thread Grant. Maybe the mods can split this over the the other thread that was about this?

Here is the old thread on this
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2292&hilit

[NBPCA]

Hi everyone,

Been busy sifting and sortin stuff outside.

The whole point of me doing tests is to lay to rest some iconsistencies that come up when you talk about potting mixes.

One person told he sifted his ...
I assumed that meant he sifted out the superfine particles. Fair enough.
but no he had sifted out larger particles and kept the fines that were bound to clog up drainage and keep wet. My misunderstanding.

People can use the same product but in different or "wrong" ways as well.

Akadama should be sieved to remove dust but not too much as it continues to break while sieving. Do use mix particle sizes, do you use chop sticks, fingers, jsut pour it in or settle by tapping the pot. Do you use a drainage layer. Where do you live, how often do you water, is it shady, semi shady or full sun.So already there are a number of variables that will affect performance of a known consistent product; let alone one that may vary from the mine.

The glass of water test sounds OK as well. I will try.

Grant

[Grant Bowie]

One or two further things re Akadama and its use.

I was told that once you have placed the tree in the pot and settled it into the soil; you then water it!. But not just water it, you water it!. You water and water it until the water coming out the bottom is clear; ie no fine particles left to wash out.

Now refer to thread about drainage layer.

Grant

[Mojo Moyogi]

Hi Grant,
Is Akadama that well suited to Australian conditions? I have tried it for a couple of seasons about ten years ago, but discontinued it's use for cost reasons. I know quite a lot of people in Australia swear by it, but perhaps it may be too moisture retentive in the dormant season for some Australian climates. In Japan, climate is cold/dry winter and hot humid summer with very high rainfall. While some areas of our country have high summer rainfall and high humidity, winter is not cold or even cool. Even here at the Southern extents of the Great Dividing Range, in some years we recieve 1/2 of our annual rainfall from December to March, but our winters are cold and very damp with high rainfall. I remember reading that Akadama can be troublesome in the UK during their cold, wet winters. Has anyone found that akadama has limitations as a bonsai growing media in their climate?

HI Mojo it was mainly the idea that you put forward that kitty litters are made for cats to piss in and and therefore will not work as Bonsai soil but only should be used for painting your face!. I saw the article from Harry as his experience with added notes from readers that I took as leads to find something that worked in your own country.
The guy that did the freezing and thawing was actually with the same aquatic mix that we now use so in fact it was great advice. In any event I don't think it is fiar to say that anything labeled as kitty litter is no good as diatomite is also labeled as a kitty litter.
Also I know chandlers did not work for you but I think you also know that it has worked for me. In fact just as you have several years of trial and error so have I and I have shown the great results I have had with it in my soil mix.
As I have stated in the past I don't think it will last 5 years but as my stock is young and needs re potting at least every 2 years it has worked great when I have used it.
I have bought many bags and never found any variation in quality.
I tend to think that when two people get conflicting results then it is a good idea to consider why they are getting different results instead of labeling their results as balderdash! I am curious why chandlers has not worked for some others are you not curious why it has worked for me?

Brett, I think you will find that I said that the freeze/thaw test as described by Harrington is an inadequate means for determining a soil component's durability, I never stated that substrates that passed this test were necessarily inferior. Nor did I label your results as "balderdash". I have not seen your test results, so I could not comment. It does occur to me that your and my definitions of success could well be quite different.

This has become tiresome, I really do not want to continue a dialogue with you any further on this. I am beginning to realise that it none of my business what people grow their trees in, if they have not directly asked for my opinion, or for my assistance.

Mojo

[Grant Bowie]

What about ph testing the various mixes. I am guessing they are all roughly neutral but they may not be?

Yes knowing PH at the start and then once we do a trial growing season or two we can check periodically.

Grant

[Grant Bowie]

Hi all,

I will eventually be setting up a trial of diatomite and others as growing media and trying various permutations and combinations of them together.

Firstly we will see how much water the various media absorb/or not and then hold onto/or not.

At the collection I have some brand new orchid pots measuring measuring 28cm accross and 11cm deep. The holes are generous and largish so I will use a drainage layer of equal volume of each type of potting media in each pot.

Weigh first, then dunk and let sit in the water for say 10 minutes, then lift and drain and then reweigh each one as it stops draining, and then all at the same time each hour .

(I will donate the various potting materials that I have accumalated as I will use it all up myself eventually.)

Any other suggestions or observations at this time?

Other suggestions are now 1 Air Filled Porosity. 2 PH 3 drying out times (but you can adjust by particle size)
Grant

[Grant Bowie]

Hi Grant,
Is Akadama that well suited to Australian conditions? I have tried it for a couple of seasons about ten years ago, but discontinued it's use for cost reasons. I know quite a lot of people in Australia swear by it, but perhaps it may be too moisture retentive in the dormant season for some Australian climates. In Japan, climate is cold/dry winter and hot humid summer with very high rainfall. While some areas of our country have high summer rainfall and high humidity, winter is not cold or even cool. Even here at the Southern extents of the Great Dividing Range, in some years we recieve 1/2 of our annual rainfall from December to March, but our winters are cold and very damp with high rainfall. I remember reading that Akadama can be troublesome in the UK during their cold, wet winters. Has anyone found that akadama has limitations as a bonsai growing media in their climate?

HI Mojo it was mainly the idea that you put forward that kitty litters are made for cats to piss in and and therefore will not work as Bonsai soil but only should be used for painting your face!. I saw the article from Harry as his experience with added notes from readers that I took as leads to find something that worked in your own country.
The guy that did the freezing and thawing was actually with the same aquatic mix that we now use so in fact it was great advice. In any event I don't think it is fiar to say that anything labeled as kitty litter is no good as diatomite is also labeled as a kitty litter.
Also I know chandlers did not work for you but I think you also know that it has worked for me. In fact just as you have several years of trial and error so have I and I have shown the great results I have had with it in my soil mix.
As I have stated in the past I don't think it will last 5 years but as my stock is young and needs re potting at least every 2 years it has worked great when I have used it.
I have bought many bags and never found any variation in quality.
I tend to think that when two people get conflicting results then it is a good idea to consider why they are getting different results instead of labeling their results as balderdash! I am curious why chandlers has not worked for some others are you not curious why it has worked for me?

Brett, I think you will find that I said that the freeze/thaw test as described by Harrington is an inadequate means for determining a soil component's durability, I never stated that substrates that passed this test were necessarily inferior. Nor did I label your results as "balderdash". I have not seen your test results, so I could not comment. It does occur to me that your and my definitions of success could well be quite different.

This has become tiresome, I really do not want to continue a dialogue with you any further on this. I am beginning to realise that it none of my business what people grow their trees in, if they have not directly asked for my opinion, or for my assistance.

Mojo

Hi, Yes I heard the same about England and it not working there. A japanese fellow I spoke to a week ago he was surprised but then I pointed out the same facts and he understood. In WA some people use Akadama mixed with 50% gravel, others have tries it and swear by it, others have tried it and moved on to something else.

Particle size appropriate to the age of the tree and need for vigour or refinement; plus size of tree plus extremes of climate both hot/cold or humid/dry will affect a soil component and your use or non use of it.

I am just investigating to find out.

Grant

[Bretts]

Yes Mojo I see that Harry does also suggest that as a test. Well that is pretty well the test I used to find chandlers except I didn't bother freezing it as I guess that is a colder climate than mine issue.
It has always been an instant result on the ones that don't work for me. As soon as you add water they clump or start to dissolve. The only two that I have not found to do this was Aquatic plant mix and chandlers. Both have proven to be useful over time since that initial test.
I paid alot for some diatomite used to soak up oil under the BBQ once only to find it clumpd and disolved as soon as I added water

You had participated in the thread where I showed the results I got. Not so much a test just a very happy tree that was in it's second year growing in Chandlers. As I stated before the tree went into that mix it's roots where a pretty sorry sight yet two years on the pot is packed with roots and the tree is vibrant in it's growth.
If you wanted to see this you only have to follow the link.
I can show another if you like!
Not only have you joined that last discussion but you have made jibes about me using it since then.

What no Chandlers this year? Is Woolworths, Coles and IGA in receivership

Cheers
Mojo

Then taking into account what you say here about it such as painting our face with it I don't think it is a far stretch that you consider my success with it as balderdash!
If you stopped ignoring the good results people have had with it maybe the discussion would not be so tireing for you!

[sreeve]

Hi Grant
Thanks for conducting these tests in an impartial manner - I am sure that I like all others here are keen to see the results.

Paul, your comment is very valid and one I hadnt thought of.
Regards
Steve

After thinking about it, it will be difficult to ascertain the exact amount of water that drains out when I lift it out of the water; so it will only be guess work unless you can suggest a method.
Grant.
l

Hi Grant,
I think the easiest way to determine the air-filled porosity of a soil might be to run a separate / parallel test.

A small bucket, jar, sealed pot (holes temporarily blocked watertight with plasticine) is filled with slightly compacted soil - as per normal bonsai practice.

The soil should be level and have a relatively smooth surface.

Fill the vessel with water such that the water is level with the top of the soil surface.
Measure volume of water used = volume of retained water and air spaces (occupied temporarily)

Now drain all free water from the vessel and catch this run off water.
Measured volume of water = volume air spaces

The simplest way is to do this once only.
However, there could be some compaction over time – so perhaps using a vessel that has re-sealable holes will allow normal watering of the pot / soil (even though there is no tree in it).

Not having a tree in the pot will negate the progressively increasing volume occupied by growing roots and trunk etc.

Hope the above makes sense and is of assistance
Regards
Steve

[Grant Bowie]

Thanks,

Yes , thanks to some PMs I had worked out to do a separate test for the Air Filled Porosity as it couldn't be done with the Orchid pots.

Tedious but I will give it a go.

Grant

[NBPCA]

Just some preliminary insights into this Diatomite(Mt Sylvia this batch).

I gave one pot full a good watering and then checked it the next day. The water retention was amazingly even right from the very top down to the very bottom. Nowhere in the pot was it more obviously wet or dry than another; it was consistently moist/dry throughout.

Grant

[Bretts]

That was what I noticed as exceptional too Grant. I guess if you soak it for some time in a tray of water it will end up with a water table at the bottom. Still have my test pot sitting there I might wack it in a tray and see what happens