Trident Maple Needs Help

[Bonsaiforest]

Don't ever Go Away on work and leave your Bonsais in the care of others....!!! I've had this Maple for about eight years now & when I picked it up thought it had potential Hmmm. Well last winter I root pruned and trimmed branches back, mixed up some new soil and added some slow release into the mix and re-potted back into its growing tub. I was to be away on work from just before spring & return in late Jan. Before my trip away I entrusted my wife to keep up the daily watering & my brother to keep an eye on it while I was away. Well when I returned I was absolutely bewildered as to how fast this crazy trident had grown. Tried to slide the growing container and it wouldn't budge. Roots had grown through the drainage holes and had planted themselves in the ground (bad bad bad). Top of trunk (main leader) was at about 5 & 1/2 ft, top right branch had decided that it wanted to also become the new leader and grew just as strong. Bottom branches left & right grew out of control (they aren't in the right positions both sitting pretty level now). Originally left bottom branch was slightly lower than the right. Well as you can see from the pics tree has a lot of dominant reverse taper on the right side with quite heavy branching. On the left side its way to straight without much character. The leader has not developed much and has stayed pretty thin and doesn't really blend with main trunk. I think this due to the back being hollow with out much in the way of back branches to help thicken in this area.
Well anyway when I returned I decided to try to slow it down - even though it was the wrong time of year I root pruned (chopped) and planted in the pot that it was destined for.

Need some serious help here...suggestions and solutions as to the direction that I can take with this tree. Hopefully the pics pass & you can see what I'm talking about. Problems problems & more problems? Really just need to know where to start. Tree is quite an oldie sits about 1.1metres and has a base of 28cm(+ wider nebari flare that cant be seen) & 21cm lower trunck. Really hoping that I don't have to chop all the branches & start again(not sure if I'll pick up any buds close to trunk on such old wood) but in saying that all suggestions are welcome. If any one can do those suggestive sketches over photos and re-post that would be great.

Here it is.........?

[Daluke]

Interesting tree. I look forward to people's advice.

[Bonsaiforest]

Yeah thinking the same...Need all the advice I can get for this one...hoping for some advice/solutions as to where to go from here ?..Or really... A starting point as to how to rectify problem areas such as the current branch placement .In a perfect world I'd love the left bottom branch to be lower and the right bottom branch to have a more natural appearance (rather than an unsightly bend straight towards the ground) Would also like suggestions as to how to rectify the taper towards the top end of the tree. I know that the reverse taper on the right side cant really be rectified but maybe there's an opportunity to build the left side of tree to create some kind of balance.

[Nate.bonsai]

Great bark and some good stock. My major suggestion would be to cut off the lower right branch. It appears to be coming out at exactly the same level as the lower left branch and causing some bar-thickening at that point.

I know that it seems a big decision, but that branch is also on the inside of the curve of the trunk, so would look better gone in any event. Also, I think that the lower right is the one which you don't like the angle of emergence, so it would also remove this sticking point. To compensate for its removal, you would then train the second right branch downwards by a reasonable degree.

As to the reverse taper further up, I would cut that section out (the lumpy part on the upper right of the trunk). It would be no worse than a trunk chop and the scar will heal on a trident in not too long.

Finally, ideally I would reduce the crown height just a little, for a really powerful height to weight ratio.


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[bonsaisensation]

Hi bonsaiforest
Your existing front might not be the best front, as well as the planting angle. Maybe try a few more views rotating slightly to clockwise or anticlockwise. And tilt it slightly to the left or right to add a better sense of movement to the subtle curve in the trunk. In other words, the trunk does not appear so straight coming off the soil.
You also need to decide on the angles of the branches. With this tree been a somewhat tall and gradual tapered trunk, I'd prefer the angles to point slightly upwards instead of downwards.
I don't usually like to comment too much on the styling options of tree based on a few photos. However they are some of the designing principles I apply to figure out the future direction of trees.



Regards


Tien

[Truth]

I think you should take advantage of the opportunity that this unhindered growth has bestowed on you! For starters, any new whips that may have grown, could potentially become excellent material to use for thread-grafts for new branches. This solves your issue on your bent branches, gives you new branches much lower on the trunk, and solves your worries about back budding on old wood.

I think good sites for new branches would be along the right side, looking from your existing front.

Any new growth that won't contribute to this can probably be trimmed now.

As far as the overall height, you could do another chop on your highest leader, for taper movement ect. I'd cut back the secondary 'leader' for now, if you don't believe it adds anything to the design potential.

This is in my opinion. Something to think about at least. I'll be interested in what you ultimately decide to go with

[Bonsaiforest]

Hey Mr Truth thanks for your feedback.
The concept of the whips was a great idea...yet... I went outside today to see if they'd reach & they all fall a couple of inches short of where I want to graft. Should I let these whips grow for this comming season & then start the thread grafts the following year? If there's another alternative then please advise. Have watched a utube video of a bonsai artist taking cuttings from a trident, planting them in large starter pots & growing whips to about a metre in one season (or that's what he says).
Which whips would provide the strongest growth once thread grafted ? Whips in their own starter pots or whips coming off the main tree ?
Also do you think a thread graft pushing through a 20cm trunk is possible...really not sure if it I'll take & don't really have that much experience with thread grafts...I've watched many utube videos and am willing to give it my best shot...any hints/tip in would be great.
Appreciate your thoughts...Think the grafts are the most logical solution to begin with...rather than chopping off branches here and there. If the grafts take then I can always remove unwanted branches later.

[Bonsaiforest]

Another follow up on Nate.bonsai's Suggestions above. Removing the right lower branch and wiring the one above down at a considerable angle. Have tried to do a sketch of desired branch placement (even though it looks like a Christmas tree) you get the idea. Like the possibility although it may make the trunk to tall and tree looking top heavy.

[shibui]

Lots of Qs there mate so lets see if I can help a bit.

Have watched a utube video of a bonsai artist taking cuttings from a trident, planting them in large starter pots & growing whips to about a metre in one season (or that's what he says).

Growing to 1 m is not out of the question with good culture. The difficulty for me is getting the cuttings struck. For some reason maples don't strike well here so I use seedlings.

Which whips would provide the strongest growth once thread grafted ? Whips in their own starter pots or whips coming off the main tree ?

I find that shoots that are wired down from the upper parts of the tree and grafted into the lower area seem to lose vigour. Shoots from low on the tree that are grafted above the source grow much better as do whips in their own pots. I think this is because the tips that are above the base of the shoot are strongest but (maple) shoots do not really like growing downwards. I have seen it done but it is definitely easier if the shoot goes up to the grafting site.

Also do you think a thread graft pushing through a 20cm trunk is possible

Thread grafts through any thickness is possible. The limiting factor is how far you can drill a hole. To drill through a 20 cm diam trunk you will need a drill but around 25 cm long unless you think you are clever enough to drill from both sides and meet in the middle???

I went outside today to see if they'd reach & they all fall a couple of inches short of where I want to graft. Should I let these whips grow for this comming season & then start the thread grafts the following year? If there's another alternative then please advise.

I would leave the long shoots to grow until they are long enough to reach the graft sites. Should do that this season if you look after it well. It would be worth wiring the shoots and bending them towards the position required now while they are still flexible. From experience I can tell you that by the end of next season the current growth will probably be too thick and hard to bend properly and many will break when you try to bend them into the required spots. Alternative is to get some seedlings or already rooted cuttings to use for the grafts. Sometimes seedlings can be slightly different which will stand out when grafted onto a tree but most tridents are pretty uniform so might be worth the risk?

Removing the right lower branch and wiring the one above down at a considerable angle. Have tried to do a sketch of desired branch placement (even though it looks like a Christmas tree) you get the idea. Like the possibility although it may make the trunk to tall and tree looking top heavy.

I would not wire the branch above down too much. One of the reasons for removing lower right branch is because it drops down too much and does not conform with the rest of the branches. Having a space can be good. Design is at least as much about the spaces as the bits that are filled. Your tree is currently too full and really needs some more space. Just remove the branch and leave the area open. I would probably also remove quite a few of the other branches to leave more spaces in the canopy.
Removing a branch will not make the trunk too tall and top heavy. It already is and this is very common in trees that are developed quickly - I have quite a few like this. Keeping the lower branch will not stop the trunk being tall. Shortening it is the only way to solve the problem so look for a spot where you can cut the trunk. Hopefully one of the branches can be used to replace the apex if not hopefully a new shoot will come after pruning and as a last resort another graft might give a new and better apex.

[Bonsaiforest]

Now.... Mr Shibui

This is the kind of response that I was looking for...!!! Really appreciate the detailed information provided. Nate.bonsai also suggested the bottom right branch being removed, yet I was still unsure and hesitant to go ahead. I'll proceed as directed and will chop the bottom (R) branch. Will wire shoots now to get as close to desired placements for the thread grafts. The other remaining shoots I'll remove & plant as starters to grow as new whips that can be used at a later date. I'll also reduce the apex down to suitable buds.
I've actual already taped down the 2nd right branch to see what it would look like and am still unsure...when its lowered there is more negative space yet when in its current position it looks to close to the branch above Hmmm.
In general do tridents usually look more natural having their branches bend slightly up towards the light..? The Left branch comes out close to a 90 degree angle, it's really thick and heavy with no real taper, So would that mean that I should cut back to shoots closer to the trunk and re-shape..? I have a few thinner branches coming straight out from the front of the trunk so would I remove these to have the main focus on the trunk & side branching, or would you leave them in place to create a fuller canopy..? And back to thread grafting when is the best season, do I do it before bud break or is it possible to let shoots grow out then defoliate and then graft..?

[Andrew Legg]

I'd make the back the front and accentuate that scar. It would make a kickass fairy tale type tree. Think Lord of the Rings type stuff. Enchanted forest. Hmmmm. I'm serious. Spooky. Who wants normal right?

Oh, and then you suddenly got some sweet back branches! Two for the price of one.

[dansai]

Can we see a photo of the whole tree from the back. I like Andrews thinking.

[shibui]

I've actual already taped down the 2nd right branch to see what it would look like and am still unsure...when its lowered there is more negative space yet when in its current position it looks to close to the branch above Hmmm.

Your current left branch is almost horizontal and is too thick to move. Lowering the new right branch below horizontal will only continue the problem of inconsistency. The point has been made above that a tree looks better when all parts are in harmony ie when all branches have similar orientation and shape. If the lower left branch is horizontal and cannot be changed then make the other branches similar (or cut off).

yet when in its current position it looks to close to the branch above Hmmm.

I mentioned above that it looks like there are too many branches on this tree. If your lower branch is too close to the one above then 1 of them needs to be removed This is a common problem with more developed trees. When the branches are first grown they are small and thin so there is plenty of space and they look good. As they grow and thicken and ramify the spaces disappear - time to selectively remove some branches to re-establish those important spaces.

In general do tridents usually look more natural having their branches bend slightly up towards the light..?

i actually prefer trident branches to rise ever so slightly at the trunk then bend to grow horizontal or just below however the angle is of far less importance than unity. Just make all branches similar and it will look better.

The Left branch comes out close to a 90 degree angle, it's really thick and heavy with no real taper, So would that mean that I should cut back to shoots closer to the trunk and re-shape..?

It is hard to see all the factors of every branch in a photo so it is hard to give specific advice. In general taper in both branches and trunk is important so if you can prune to get better taper then do so. You might be able to find a side branch that will replace the end of the branch to give both taper and some movement. When I look at the photo I see a slight downward angle which looks ok to me but you are the one who has to be happy with it. I have found that there are some pitfalls to reshaping lower branches. With a strong apex and upper branches low branches are extremely reluctant to grow and so regrow and thicken very slowly. Defoliating and constant pruning of the upper branches does encourage growth low down but you will need to be right on it if you go down this path.

I have a few thinner branches coming straight out from the front of the trunk so would I remove these to have the main focus on the trunk & side branching, or would you leave them in place to create a fuller canopy..

Some small front branches or parts of branches that cover some of the trunk are important. This adds some elements of mystery to the design. Usually show the trunk at least 1/2 way up unless there is some flaw you want to disguise. In the upper part I still like to see some bits of trunk but the glimpses get smaller and eventually disappear into the canopy near the top.

And back to thread grafting when is the best season, do I do it before bud break or is it possible to let shoots grow out then defoliate and then graft..?

Before bud break is the preferred time. When the buds are small they will fit through a smaller hole. Smaller hole means quicker to heal. You can still thread graft after the new leaves harden off but you will have to cit off all leaves and the stalks so the shoot will fit into your drill hole - that's more work.

One very important thing to remember here: No bonsai will be absolutely perfect. They are living things. We should get used to having some slight flaws in our trees

[Bonsaiforest]

Thanks Shibui, really appreciate guidance provided on my trident ...understanding that not all trees are the same I'll have to be a little more patient and take my time.

Cheers

[Bonsaiforest]

Went up to Ray Nesci's a couple of weeks ago and was having a chat with him about my big maple. I told him that I wasn't too happy with the branch placement and wanted to promote budding closer to the trunk so that I can start the process all over. Asked him when the best time to chop back & he said now, the month of July is the best time to do major work like this. He said that the best method is to cut branches back to stubs & do the same to the roots, cutting them back quite hard as well. He said that come spring there will be new buds popping below cut marks & closer to the trunk, which is what I'm hoping for. Bit the bullet & went all out... chopping all existing heavy branches leaving stubs an inch or 2 in length, & left the smaller/thinner branches that I was happy with, a little longer.
It's gonna a be a long hall re-growing new branches and waiting for them to mature but I should (with any luck) have the chance to choose specific buds (rub of those that I don't need) & when new shoots form, wire them up, let them set while their young (probably take 6-8 weeks) & then remove before it cuts in.
Also went ahead and applied some approach/root grafts - as this is the first time I've attempted hope it all works out & they take first time round.
Will post more pics of the tree after the heavy chop later, first lot didn't work out, only had 1 to show