Where to get small leaf japanese maple seedlings?

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delisea
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Where to get small leaf japanese maple seedlings?

Post by delisea »

I have been watching Bjorn's tutorials and it has worn down my resistance to non-local species. I think it is time to embark on a long-term Japanese maple project.

Does anybody know were to get Japanese Maple seedlings that have small leaves?

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Re: Where to get small leaf japanese maple seedlings?

Post by TimS »

I’ve been through the roller coaster of JM, love to hate and now I’m coming back to love again. Two biggest issues I’ve found are they are highly susceptible to powdery mildew, and once you are ready to refine them you MUST be vigilant pinching the central shoot out of the flushes of growth otherwise you will get enormous internodes. The exception is Shishigashira which has tiny internodes.

Seeds will have a wide genetic range in JM, you will get big and small leaf ones. Best bet would be to collect seed from a tree with small leaves already, or hunt through nurseries looking for straight species with natural small leaf genetics, or look at growing a cultivar with small leaves like Murasaki Kiyohime if you want a more clumping style or Shishigashira for a strongly upright style

This is my Murasaki Kiyohime i'm working on airlayering at the moment that i purhased just as a normal garden tree in a nursery. I'll keep it on the graft, i'm just raising the root base up higher ready for bonsai.
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Re: Where to get small leaf japanese maple seedlings?

Post by KIRKY »

Fully agree seeds are not a reliable source for small leaf, too many genetic variables. Suggest you research the small leaf variety you are after. Then source it, knowing it will more than likely be grafted and be prepare to air lay come spring.
I just got the following Kamagata, Komache Hime and Coonara pygmy which I’ve got as a garden plant. I will be air laying these come spring.

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Re: Where to get small leaf japanese maple seedlings?

Post by TimS »

Kamagata is a great small leaf cultivar, I had forgotten about it but I tried to air layer a young one I had a few years ago but it failed. I need to go out to Yamina to get another one sometime and try again.
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Re: Where to get small leaf japanese maple seedlings?

Post by KIRKY »

Another one I missed out on is Seigen, maybe next year.
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Re: Where to get small leaf japanese maple seedlings?

Post by TimS »

I’ve not found Seigen here before though I keep my eyes peeled
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Re: Where to get small leaf japanese maple seedlings?

Post by KIRKY »

If I find one, do you want me to let you know? but it won’t be till next year now.
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Re: Where to get small leaf japanese maple seedlings?

Post by TimS »

Please do!
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Re: Where to get small leaf japanese maple seedlings?

Post by KIRKY »

pm sent :wave:
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Re: Where to get small leaf japanese maple seedlings?

Post by gnichols »

Maples x mail sell Seigen most years. They also have Kashima and Kamagata some years. Grabbed a coonara pygmy a few years back but the slugs and snails at my place ripped it to shreds.

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Re: Where to get small leaf japanese maple seedlings?

Post by shibui »

Small leaves may be an attractive proposition but is not the be all and end all of JM bonsai. I have found most of the dwarf JM cultivars I have tried are frustrating. Very slow to grow and develop and some react strangely to pruning and trimming.
Most of you probably won't take much notice until you have tried it for themselves but I get far better results from standard JM seedlings.
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Re: Where to get small leaf japanese maple seedlings?

Post by TimS »

Comes down to try and see what you find clicks with you personally I think.

I find the growth habit of straight species to put out 5-10cm long internodes if you miss the pinch a bit infuriating so I quite like the dwarf species though they have their own quirks of course. I do grow straight species still but only one special tree now.

I have a dwarf of some sort I don’t know what cultivar exactly, but the longest internode if you miss the pinch is probably 5cm and doesn’t thicken like crazy the way straight species does. Much more manageable when you work full time and I’ve just layered the top off to make a nice little shohin tree going forward.

You might find one works better for you than the other. I believe Bjorn’s clump you spoke of at the start is straight species from pencil thick whips he started while visiting Bill Valavanis when he was young. I remember him talking about it in a video at one point.
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Re: Where to get small leaf japanese maple seedlings?

Post by delisea »

Thanks, Tim, Kirky, gnichols and Neil for the replies.
I did want to start some long-term JM projects as described in the Bjorn videos. But I don't want to be 5 years down the track to realise that I will never be able to get twiggy fine branches.
A lot of the kokufu trees are a variety called Matsumurae. Is this a colder weather variety?
I understand the concept of genetic variation when grown by seed, but if the parent plant has small leaves I assume that more of the offspring would have a small leaf tendency?
It might just be easier to try trident maples?
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Re: Where to get small leaf japanese maple seedlings?

Post by TimS »

Have a listen to the Mirai podcast with Denis Vojtilla. His first is pretty general, his second one goes into a lot of detail about managing straight species JM to get and keep fine ramification. I know Ryan’s expounding shits a lot of people off but if you can put up with it Dennis is a fountain of information.

It’s absolutely possible to achieve fine ramification on straight species but in spring you have to be checking it daily to make sure you get every shoot pinched before it starts running rampant. Trident doesn’t have the same propensity for growing internodes 10cm long or thickening as quickly so it is definitely easier.

Pinching for younger material you are building is obviously not necessary, and not a great idea on sick trees, but once you are at a ‘show’ level of ramification it becomes essential.

Fine ramification on straight species definitely can be done.
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Re: Where to get small leaf japanese maple seedlings?

Post by shibui »

A lot of the kokufu trees are a variety called Matsumurae. Is this a colder weather variety?
matsumurae is one of the 3 distinct varieties of Acer palmatum. It appears to have evolved in colder mountain areas and smaller leaves is one of the characteristics. Note that variety is different to cultivar. Most of the named 'varieties' we refer to are actually cultivars and are one off chance seedlings that we then choose to propagate asexually to retain the genetic characteristics we like.
Varieties originate from isolated populations that have developed differently to the rest of the species in other areas. This is long term genetic change so are relatively stable genetically and can usually be grown from seed and still retain almost identical characteristics.
I understand the concept of genetic variation when grown by seed, but if the parent plant has small leaves I assume that more of the offspring would have a small leaf tendency?
Correct assumption but 'tendency' is the key word. Much depends on the lineage of the parent tree - what its own parents and grand parents looked.
Growing seed is always a lottery. Even more so with a highly bred and naturally variable species like JM but selecting seed from a parent with desirable character is always a good start.

JM can produce great bonsai but they do have a number of frustrating characteristics - leaf size and internode is just the beginning - that make it difficult to develop really good bonsai. Trident is definitely way easier in may ways.
My advice is to learn with the easier tridents then use the skills developed there to develop JM when you get on top of trimming and maintenance techniques.
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