AusBonsai

SquatJar wrote: ↑August 4th, 2021, 8:08 amMy only concern would be longterm, say 10-20years time, are you encouraging a concave/sigmoidal shaped nebari as opposed to the difinitely more beautiful and natural concave shape

I’m not sure I understand what the concern is long term…? Or the bit about concave/sigmoidal vs natural concave?? I did see the pics you posted after putting this out there but I think I’m still missing something perhaps. Slow learner!!

I'm not sure if this terrible sketch in paint will help or hinder what I'm trying to say.

If you plant the tree higher in the pot you're effectively exposing the nebari too quickly. What can happen over time is the surface roots in the top 20-30mm of soil or so (above the red line) are in an area that dries out quicker, and hence they grow and curve downwards, creating a convex shape (green arrows).

When you plant the tree lower, on or very near the bottom of the pot and slowly raise the tree you end up continuing the concave shape of the tachiagari, into the nebari. The design just flows into the soil in a more pleasing fashion.

EDIT: I can see in your quote I wrote concave twice! This post is correct: convex = ugly, concave = pretty

I understand your premise Squat Jar and that is what I have been thinking, or more accurately what I have been told since I started bonsai. Like I said I borrowed this idea from some European bonsai professionals who are coming to the idea that concave = boring or maybe more correctly standard and they are exploring other ways to get interesting material to exhibition standard.
There is not one right answer and I will see over time if I change my opinion on tree placement in the pot, or not. I am please that this topic has got people thinking and discussing the topic.

Nice tree watto! Looking forward to the updates. I like chunky bulgey roots.

Checkout kokufu_maples on Instagram if you want to see how maples have developed over time in the kokufu. It is photos of every maple in the exhibition starting from the 1960s. I see someone here is already all over this link - r3.
Cheers,
Symon

SquatJar wrote: ↑August 5th, 2021, 12:03 am I'm not sure if this terrible sketch in paint will help or hinder what I'm trying to say.

If you plant the tree higher in the pot you're effectively exposing the nebari too quickly. What can happen over time is the surface roots in the top 20-30mm of soil or so (above the red line) are in an area that dries out quicker, and hence they grow and curve downwards, creating a convex shape (green arrows).

When you plant the tree lower, on or very near the bottom of the pot and slowly raise the tree you end up continuing the concave shape of the tachiagari, into the nebari. The design just flows into the soil in a more pleasing fashion.

EDIT: I can see in your quote I wrote concave twice! This post is correct: convex = ugly, concave = pretty

Thanks for the elaboration. The double concave description completely confused me ... so the typo sorts that out, and I wasn't sure if your long term concerns were for the health of the tree, or just aesthetics ... so I think from what you say it is a "looks" thing more than for any horticultural reason. I completely understand the theory on root development described, just wondered if there were any other factors with potting higher that might not be so great for the tree's health specifically.

In which case, I say "horses for courses". I think depending on the sort of aesthetic you are looking to achieve you could (should) consider both options. It also may depend on the kind of tree to some extent. For example pines vs maples vs figs ... I feel like there is a can of worms in here ...

Anyway ... as with just about everything in bonsai, the short answer is ... it depends.

For what it's worth Watto, I think the tree is looking good and am interested to see how it develops over the next couple of years. You never know until you have a go!

delisea wrote: ↑August 5th, 2021, 7:57 am Checkout kokufu_maples on Instagram if you want to see how maples have developed over time in the kokufu. It is photos of every maple in the exhibition starting from the 1960s. I see someone here is already all over this link - r3.

I might have had a look ...

Nice Yohen Tokoname pot!!!

Simon