AusBonsai

Well I am certainly impressed by the skill, technique and dedication taken to create this tree. There is still the vision of what he wanted to create and what he has made. It’s a substantial and impressive tree.

I appreciate that he feels the tree represents his journey in bonsai over the past few years. He is obviously happy and proud of what he has done with this tree. If he has enjoyed the process then that’s what it’s about to me and I applaud that.

I completely understand people not liking the Green Helmet thing but I don’t understand how heated the debate seems to get at times.

I think if you are trying to recreate the natural form that something like treeman's first picture at 5.37 today would have been a better representation. I think it could have been done more sparsely that would have conveyed the struggle against the forces of nature a tree of that age would have faced.

I can't see how a tree in that situation would have the manicured finish that resulted. I would have preferred a beaten up distressed look.

JC_squid wrote: ↑May 15th, 2020, 6:18 pm Well I am certainly impressed by the skill, technique and dedication taken to create this tree. There is still the vision of what he wanted to create and what he has made.

It may seem like it, but believe it or not, there is just not the high level of skill needed for this kind of work as it may seem at first glance.
If you look at the pic below, you can see how easy it is to bring down the branches according the way it has been done 10 million times before. That means planning which branches you are going to use - or are able to use, (and you know which ones you'll use because you already know what the finished tree will look like) and removing or jinning off the others. The rest can almost be done blindfolded because it follows the same blueprint I was talking about before. IMO there is no ''vision'' here at all, only a determination to yet again, domesticate something wild into another Japanese garden tree form. Kimura does it all the time. It makes no sense to me anymore (although I completely understand the reasons why it's done) and I'm pleased to see that it makes no sense to a growing number of others too!

In my opinion, the tree is very well manicured but there is a definite disconnect between the rugged base and the manicured topiary on top. Every time I see this style of "green helmet" I am reminded of an interview I saw a few years ago of a retired Japanese master who had won many prestigious awards. He was interviewed after he had retired and the reporter made the comment that he was styling his trees very differently from his award winning days. The master replied that was because he was no longer interested in winning awards, he now grew trees that reflected what he saw in nature.

Moral of the story is that to win an award you MUST follow the current convention. If you don't give a toss about awards then you style in ways that please you. It takes a very brave artist to break with convention and go against the flow of the current fashion trends. It is rare for a trend setter to win at a prestigious event. Ergo people who earn their living from bonsai try to win awards to improve their reputation thus increasing their business. This in turn leads to very well manicured but pretty unrealistic trees.

KIRKY wrote: ↑May 15th, 2020, 10:20 am 100% agree, Its like seeing a punk rocker with a bowl cut done by his mum.
Ryan starts off talking about how raw, rugged, unrefined, this magnificent old specimen is and then...... well you know what happens then. “The tree talks to him”......... its saying PLEASE DON’T give me a bowl cut!
Rough, old, gnarly, material like this shouldn’t be subjected to a manicured, topiary top ever
Cheers
Kirky

so true!

I completely disagree with the theory that pretentious and manicured green helmets are good for your business and the only reason you’d create them. They are created because the artist lacks creativity to display a real tree. They only excel at a simple trained formula.

Tell that to architects who make their living off creating stunning unique houses that make people stare and dream.... rather than a 4 bedroom estate home that looks the same ridiculous boxed shape as every other estate house.

How would you make this bonsai look realistic or natural when the branches aren't in proportion to the trunk size? I reckon that ship sails the minute you dig a big stump and (in most cases) do the requisite trunk chop. He's just picked the bonsai style he likes best and accepted the fact you can't please everyone.
Cheers

seriously...i think it looks quite natural.

JC_squid wrote:Well I am certainly impressed by the skill, technique and dedication taken to create this tree. There is still the vision of what he wanted to create and what he has made. It’s a substantial and impressive tree.

I appreciate that he feels the tree represents his journey in bonsai over the past few years. He is obviously happy and proud of what he has done with this tree. If he has enjoyed the process then that’s what it’s about to me and I applaud that.

I completely understand people not liking the Green Helmet thing but I don’t understand how heated the debate seems to get at times.

Well said and well-considered response. While some may suggest that, in holding this opinion, you are naive, I disagree.

I think that it is easy to criticise and say that this tree is lazy and obvious and anyone could do it. If that was the case, we would all have award-winning, Instagram-worthy, internationally-celebrated trees (and I accept that many aren’t aiming for this, but you get the point).

I also equally appreciate that there are obvious fashions/trends in bonsai (as with everything) and not everyone will follow the current trends. Full disclosure, my absolute favourite trees are ones that don’t follow the mould and that capture a truly unique and wild essence. But, you don’t have to rubbish those for whom the current trends appeal in order to say ‘I have a different aesthetic’.

There is room for all on their own merits. It doesn’t have to be ‘I am right and you are absolutely wrong and worthless’.


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I'm a mere beginner with bonsai and don't care about styling for competitions and displays in the "traditional"manner. I'm in many ways like MJL in my approach and attitude. I also agree with Treeman and many similar comments by others about the styling of this tree.
My contribution to this discussion is:- With a magnificent starting yamadori like that why did he have to create another clone that looks similar to a thousand other trees before it? The parts that look best are the deadwood he couldn't alter, but like others have already commented the live foliage just does not look right (to me) sitting on that beautifully nature-sculpted deadwood.

A few highlights on this thread - tips and observations to take away and learn (e.g. "foliage (if any) on the windward side is sparse and very short" being one). Most importantly (for me anyway) is that people are remaining respectful and focussed on the discussion/debate. Words are tricky things - far tricker than bonsai ... and I think it's cool that more often than not on this forum... words are used constructively.

Its like a witty and very handsome man once said:

"When the viewer recognizes your work and says "ah yes, that is clearly a tree designed by that handsome man Rory", you have let down the tree. You need to allow the tree to grow its own identity. This also cannot be achieved in one day at a demonstration."

And the philosophy that needs to change is the misguided belief that you can take raw material and then bend, twist, wire and shape the tree into an instant bonsai. If you truly want the piece to look natural, it should take a minimum of at least 10 years of cutting back and allowing the tree to continue to form its own identity. Not just simply giving it a manicure and wiring it into another Dr Suess tree.

EdwardH wrote: ↑May 15th, 2020, 8:27 pm Moral of the story is that to win an award you MUST follow the current convention. If you don't give a toss about awards then you style in ways that please you. It takes a very brave artist to break with convention and go against the flow of the current fashion trends. It is rare for a trend setter to win at a prestigious event. Ergo people who earn their living from bonsai try to win awards to improve their reputation thus increasing their business. This in turn leads to very well manicured but pretty unrealistic trees.

I think I'd be fine with all that if Ryan didn't spend six minutes of a seven minute video banging on about "realms of potential", the "tree speaking to me" and "growing with the tree".

greg27 wrote: ↑May 16th, 2020, 8:38 am I think I'd be fine with all that if Ryan didn't spend six minutes of a seven minute video banging on about "realms of potential", the "tree speaking to me" and "growing with the tree".

that's where most of the prevailing wind is coming from..?

KCaR:- ..... "that's where most of the prevailing wind is coming from..?"