Japanese Black Pine - A Seasonal Guide

Forum for discussion of Pines, Junipers, Cedar etc as bonsai.
Post Reply
User avatar
MJL
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 2840
Joined: October 26th, 2014, 8:47 pm
Favorite Species: Maples, Elms, Cedars and Pines
Bonsai Age: 7
Bonsai Club: Waverley Bonsai Group & Yarra Valley Bonsai Society
Location: Melbourne
Has thanked: 424 times
Been thanked: 643 times

Re: Japanese Black Pine - A Seasonal Guide

Post by MJL »

Cool tree pureheart!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Tending bonsai teaches me patience.
pureheart
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 505
Joined: April 16th, 2012, 1:50 pm
Favorite Species: Maple
Bonsai Age: 3
Bonsai Club: Bonsai Northwest
Location: Melbourne
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: Japanese Black Pine - A Seasonal Guide

Post by pureheart »

Thank you :)
User avatar
Homer911
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 347
Joined: April 2nd, 2015, 4:59 pm
Bonsai Age: 3
Location: Tweed Coast
Been thanked: 11 times

Re: Japanese Black Pine - A Seasonal Guide

Post by Homer911 »

Great summary, thanks....

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

pureheart
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 505
Joined: April 16th, 2012, 1:50 pm
Favorite Species: Maple
Bonsai Age: 3
Bonsai Club: Bonsai Northwest
Location: Melbourne
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: Japanese Black Pine - A Seasonal Guide

Post by pureheart »

Homer911 wrote:Great summary, thanks....

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
Lol nice pic!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
User avatar
bunce
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 206
Joined: September 24th, 2009, 11:18 pm
Favorite Species: Black Pine
Bonsai Age: 20
Bonsai Club: BONSAI NW
Location: melbourne
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 22 times
Contact:

Re: Japanese Black Pine - A Seasonal Guide

Post by bunce »

pureheart wrote: August 18th, 2020, 8:21 am
bunce wrote: August 13th, 2020, 8:18 pm Hey guys, if you'd like to find out how I manage to get homogeneous growth on my black pines, I did a blog post about it here https://hakujuenbonsai.com/blogs/blog/autumn-blog

We all end up doing it slightly differently, and do what works for you, this is just how I was told to do it when I studied abroad, and it seemed to work really well. :tu:

Hope this helps, :wave:

Matt
Thanks for the article Matt, would you please help me understand if I have to remove more needles from my pine below? According to your guide I should be leaving only five sheaths (10 needles), do I have too many now?
Thanks

IMG_1810.jpeg

IMG_1809.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
:hooray: Hakuju-En Bonsai Nursery - Shohin - Mame - Tokoname Pots - Display Tables - Repot - Styling work - https://hakujuenbonsai.com/ :aussie:
pureheart
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 505
Joined: April 16th, 2012, 1:50 pm
Favorite Species: Maple
Bonsai Age: 3
Bonsai Club: Bonsai Northwest
Location: Melbourne
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: Japanese Black Pine - A Seasonal Guide

Post by pureheart »

Ok thanks :worship: :worship: then I have to do a bit of cleaning! from your photo not all branches have 10 needles (I can see more), am I assuming is a work in progress or is there a reason why?
Thanks!
shibui
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 7653
Joined: August 22nd, 2009, 8:41 pm
Favorite Species: trident maple
Bonsai Age: 41
Bonsai Club: Albury/Wodonga; BSV; Canberra; VNBC
Location: Yackandandah
Has thanked: 65 times
Been thanked: 1399 times
Contact:

Re: Japanese Black Pine - A Seasonal Guide

Post by shibui »

Thanks for the article Matt, would you please help me understand if I have to remove more needles from my pine below? According to your guide I should be leaving only five sheaths (10 needles), do I have too many now?
Looks like there are way too many needles on those shoots but pine development is more than just numbers. Initially we need to get some smaller shoots happening so the tree will have better ramification. If you do a traditional needle pull on those shoots you will be left with long, bare sections which is not good for ramification.
It would have been better to have cut the shoots last summer to initiate short replacement shoots but you can still start now. It seems that the shoots all have needles close to the base which is great. I would trim those long shoots to leave the 4-6 pairs of needles AT THE BASE of each shoot instead of pulling needles to leave a few at the tips. JBP are good at new shoots. It should develop buds in the needles you leave. Those buds will grow in spring. If they grow really well you should cut them in December and proceed with the pine maintenance schedule from there. If the buds are smaller you could skip decandling this summer and get into the schedule at bud selection and needle pulling in autumn.
http://shibuibonsai.com.au/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
pureheart
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 505
Joined: April 16th, 2012, 1:50 pm
Favorite Species: Maple
Bonsai Age: 3
Bonsai Club: Bonsai Northwest
Location: Melbourne
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: Japanese Black Pine - A Seasonal Guide

Post by pureheart »

shibui wrote: August 19th, 2020, 5:54 pm
Thanks for the article Matt, would you please help me understand if I have to remove more needles from my pine below? According to your guide I should be leaving only five sheaths (10 needles), do I have too many now?
Looks like there are way too many needles on those shoots but pine development is more than just numbers. Initially we need to get some smaller shoots happening so the tree will have better ramification. If you do a traditional needle pull on those shoots you will be left with long, bare sections which is not good for ramification.
It would have been better to have cut the shoots last summer to initiate short replacement shoots but you can still start now. It seems that the shoots all have needles close to the base which is great. I would trim those long shoots to leave the 4-6 pairs of needles AT THE BASE of each shoot instead of pulling needles to leave a few at the tips. JBP are good at new shoots. It should develop buds in the needles you leave. Those buds will grow in spring. If they grow really well you should cut them in December and proceed with the pine maintenance schedule from there. If the buds are smaller you could skip decandling this summer and get into the schedule at bud selection and needle pulling in autumn.
That's great thanks Neil! Truth is that I did all that I was supposed to do last year (first year), decandling and all of that... I thought I did well but clearly you think the shoots are still too long...I may have cut the elongated shots too early I'm thinking... I will clean as suggested!
shibui
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 7653
Joined: August 22nd, 2009, 8:41 pm
Favorite Species: trident maple
Bonsai Age: 41
Bonsai Club: Albury/Wodonga; BSV; Canberra; VNBC
Location: Yackandandah
Has thanked: 65 times
Been thanked: 1399 times
Contact:

Re: Japanese Black Pine - A Seasonal Guide

Post by shibui »

That's great thanks Neil! Truth is that I did all that I was supposed to do last year (first year), decandling and all of that... I thought I did well but clearly you think the shoots are still too long...I may have cut the elongated shots too early I'm thinking... I will clean as suggested!
When I saw that all the shoots had needles close to the base I though those may have been second flush shoots but they are pretty big and strong. Strong second flush can be from cutting early or from too much fert or from leaving too many needles on the previous shoots. It can also occur if the tree only produces a few replacement buds after pruning.
It can sometimes take a couple of years of the maintenace program for the tree to get with the program and behave as it should.

When did you cut last summer?
I have not tried it but have been told that if second flush candles are too strong they can be snapped while they are still elongating. That stops them elongating and the remaining section opens out with needles as normal but on the shortened shoot.
http://shibuibonsai.com.au/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
pureheart
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 505
Joined: April 16th, 2012, 1:50 pm
Favorite Species: Maple
Bonsai Age: 3
Bonsai Club: Bonsai Northwest
Location: Melbourne
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: Japanese Black Pine - A Seasonal Guide

Post by pureheart »

I think around early December? As I stopped fertilising early November, I guess this year I will still stop fertilising early November but cut candles late December?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
shibui
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 7653
Joined: August 22nd, 2009, 8:41 pm
Favorite Species: trident maple
Bonsai Age: 41
Bonsai Club: Albury/Wodonga; BSV; Canberra; VNBC
Location: Yackandandah
Has thanked: 65 times
Been thanked: 1399 times
Contact:

Re: Japanese Black Pine - A Seasonal Guide

Post by shibui »

Up here I cut candles (not really a very good description as they are well opened into fully formed shoots) mid Dec through to Christmas and that seems to yield nice short regrowth by the end of summer.
The earlier you cut the larger the second flush can grow but leaving it too late may not allow the second flush to mature.
I see a lot of talk about cutting 100 days before end of growing season if it is possible to calculate that?
Alpine art developed his technique of decandling a bit earlier then snapping longer, stronger second flush candles which also seemed to work for him so there is more than one way to shorten a JBP candle.

I have also seen a few posts alluding to cutting twice a year in warmer areas but have no first hand knowledge of how that works or timings.
http://shibuibonsai.com.au/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
User avatar
bunce
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 206
Joined: September 24th, 2009, 11:18 pm
Favorite Species: Black Pine
Bonsai Age: 20
Bonsai Club: BONSAI NW
Location: melbourne
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 22 times
Contact:

Re: Japanese Black Pine - A Seasonal Guide

Post by bunce »

shibui wrote: August 19th, 2020, 6:33 pm
That's great thanks Neil! Truth is that I did all that I was supposed to do last year (first year), decandling and all of that... I thought I did well but clearly you think the shoots are still too long...I may have cut the elongated shots too early I'm thinking... I will clean as suggested!
When I saw that all the shoots had needles close to the base I though those may have been second flush shoots but they are pretty big and strong. Strong second flush can be from cutting early or from too much fert or from leaving too many needles on the previous shoots. It can also occur if the tree only produces a few replacement buds after pruning.
It can sometimes take a couple of years of the maintenace program for the tree to get with the program and behave as it should.

When did you cut last summer?
I have not tried it but have been told that if second flush candles are too strong they can be snapped while they are still elongating. That stops them elongating and the remaining section opens out with needles as normal but on the shortened shoot.
Very keen eye Neil, that was a tree that was easy to shoot, and its actually in development at the moment. you are absolutely right about needle plucking all the way up the stem. If you'd like to get some back budding the best way is to leave the needles and cut back to the first few in summer after feeding heavily. Its not guaranteed you'll get back budding, but there is a high chance you'll get buds appearing from those needles.

Second flush shouldn't elongate if you stop your feeding at the right time. If they do elongate you can do a second decandling but id only do it in selected locations. Personally I haven't had this problem before with my technique. I hope this helps.

Matt
:hooray: Hakuju-En Bonsai Nursery - Shohin - Mame - Tokoname Pots - Display Tables - Repot - Styling work - https://hakujuenbonsai.com/ :aussie:
pureheart
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 505
Joined: April 16th, 2012, 1:50 pm
Favorite Species: Maple
Bonsai Age: 3
Bonsai Club: Bonsai Northwest
Location: Melbourne
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: Japanese Black Pine - A Seasonal Guide

Post by pureheart »

Ok clean up completed!
Image
Image


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
User avatar
Mitch_28
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 112
Joined: April 24th, 2018, 8:57 am
Favorite Species: Cedrus Atlantics Glauca
Bonsai Age: 1
Location: Wollongong
Been thanked: 8 times

Re: Japanese Black Pine - A Seasonal Guide

Post by Mitch_28 »

So after reading this wealth of information am I right in my thinking that for a very young tree I am best to feed and let grow unchecked for the first few seasons to get the trunk and some of the primary branches where i want them, then start doing the seasonal pruning, candle cutting and needle selection in this guide to distribute energy and start the ramification process. Or even in the first few seasons am i best to still do some pruning to keep some sort of form and shorter internodes? The trunk on mine is only about 20 mm in diameter and just over a foot high and I would like to get it about 2.5 times that in thickness but I'm happy with the height.

Sent from my SM-G988B using Tapatalk

Daluke
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 1022
Joined: September 15th, 2014, 8:04 pm
Favorite Species: Juniper
Bonsai Age: 8
Location: Melbourne
Has thanked: 17 times
Been thanked: 105 times

Re: Japanese Black Pine - A Seasonal Guide

Post by Daluke »

Feed water bend. Don’t cut
Post Reply

Return to “Pines and Junipers”