JBP - Yatsubusa advice for my pine

[shibui]

If you look closer at the yatsubusa pictures I posted you may be able to see that all the shoots are fat. That's one of the characteristics of yatsubusa but it makes it difficult to grow nice fine twigs on a bonsai. You also need to battle against the tendancy to grow so many shoots from one place. Normal black pines don't have those drawbacks.

Lots of needles can be good or bad. Bad because it makes it harder to see the tree. Good because wherever there are needles you can get new buds to grow if you need them. So if you have too many needles feel free to pull some off. Just make sure you leave a few in places where you may want branches in future. Probably doesn't matter on this tree because it already has plenty of branches not too far apart so you are unlikely to want more in between so you should be fine to pull them off.

Am i right in thinking there are 3 whorls in this tree? i almost see like 3 plates/sets of branches with the top apex of branches being the obvious biggest with the main shoot going up.

You are probably correct but the pictures you've given us it is hard to see where the branches are coming from.
I can certainly see the top whorl fairly clearly. It has The larger central shoot, 4 medium side shoots and maybe a smaller one I think.You could leave all those on the tree as long as your intention is eventually to cut all that section off down to the whorl below - see the yatsubusa photo with my fingers. that dead section was once a trunk with a whorl of branches above.

Notice in the final pruning photo that I have cut the side branch back to where there are older needles. The original branch was too long but new buds will grow from those needles now that I've pruned. The buds will give me new shoots that are closer so I can grow a bushier branch there now instead of a long, bare one.

[treeman]

Ant advice would be fantastic!

Plant it in the garden and get a normal Black Pine. Yatsubusas are not worth the trouble.

Thanks for the post Mike. Are you able to elaborate why the Yatsubusas are not worth the trouble?

Bear in mind i am not a bonsai master and probably never will be and this tree isn't going to go on show anywhere.

Basically because of what shibui wrote. You can deal with too many buds by removing them but to get fine branch tips is very difficult if not impossible. They have thick shoots and usually they are so short it is hard to work them. To get anywhere you will be constantly disbudding, pruning excess shoots and pulling needles to reduce the density and when you do this you will get more and more back budding and still denser growth. So basically instead of being a satisfying exercise it tends to become a frustrating one. To put it simply, delicacy and elegance of branches is not achievable with yatsubusa. If you get yourself a normal pine and work with both of them you will soon notice the difference. I have one or two yatsubusas going but only keep them because they are there. I would not propagate them for bonsai but they do make wonderful landscape plants and they work very nicely with cycads in the garden and a very nice just as a pot plant. Yatsubusa type Scots pines are a better bet for bonsai if you can find one.

[jessepap]

If you look closer at the yatsubusa pictures I posted you may be able to see that all the shoots are fat. That's one of the characteristics of yatsubusa but it makes it difficult to grow nice fine twigs on a bonsai. You also need to battle against the tendancy to grow so many shoots from one place. Normal black pines don't have those drawbacks.

Lots of needles can be good or bad. Bad because it makes it harder to see the tree. Good because wherever there are needles you can get new buds to grow if you need them. So if you have too many needles feel free to pull some off. Just make sure you leave a few in places where you may want branches in future. Probably doesn't matter on this tree because it already has plenty of branches not too far apart so you are unlikely to want more in between so you should be fine to pull them off.

Am i right in thinking there are 3 whorls in this tree? i almost see like 3 plates/sets of branches with the top apex of branches being the obvious biggest with the main shoot going up.

You are probably correct but the pictures you've given us it is hard to see where the branches are coming from.
I can certainly see the top whorl fairly clearly. It has The larger central shoot, 4 medium side shoots and maybe a smaller one I think.You could leave all those on the tree as long as your intention is eventually to cut all that section off down to the whorl below - see the yatsubusa photo with my fingers. that dead section was once a trunk with a whorl of branches above.

Notice in the final pruning photo that I have cut the side branch back to where there are older needles. The original branch was too long but new buds will grow from those needles now that I've pruned. The buds will give me new shoots that are closer so I can grow a bushier branch there now instead of a long, bare one.

I have been meaning to go back and post a very big thank you for taking the time to post your pictures and pruning ideas. I really appreciate you taking the time to do that and i have gone back and re-read it several times and it has been really helpful.

i am getting the impression that i may have chosen the wrong pine for my bonsai. In light of this i am thinking that rather than trying to thicken the truck and grow for years it might be more meaningful to try and do something with the tree now so it can somewhat resemble a bonsai and then look at also obtaining a normal black pine in due course.

with this thought i might post a couple of pics of the tree to try and see the branches more clearly i took this morning prior to writing this. I am yet to touch the tree other than taking off a few dead needles.

i am thinking of cleaning most of the needles which cover the truck almost all the way up the tree - ok to do this as a very small step/start?!

[jessepap]

Pics attached.

[shibui]

You can certainly pull off enough needles so you can see the trunk and branches a bit better.

[jessepap]

You can certainly pull off enough needles so you can see the trunk and branches a bit better.

Thanks mate.
Pics attached of some pulled needles. Trunk can now be seen!!!
I got worried and stopped plucking as I wondered if I kept going there would be nothing left. Should I keep plucking most of the needles on the under braches to create some space between the braches?

Was a fair amount of sap at many spots.

[jessepap]

Ant advice would be fantastic!

Thanks for the post Mike. Are you able to elaborate why the Yatsubusas are not worth the trouble?

Bear in mind i am not a bonsai master and probably never will be and this tree isn't going to go on show anywhere.

I have one or two yatsubusas going but only keep them because they are there. I would not propagate them for bonsai but they do make wonderful landscape plants and they work very nicely with cycads in the garden and a very nice just as a pot plant. Yatsubusa type Scots pines are a better bet for bonsai if you can find one.

Would you mind posting the pics of your yatsubusas? I am curious as to how they look.

[shibui]

Should I keep plucking most of the needles on the under braches to create some space between the braches?

I don't think you have a plan. Where you go from here will depend on the plan for this tree. Otherwise you are just making random changes for the sake of something to do. Pulling more needles will not hurt the tree but it may not move you toward a goal.
A little sap is not usually a problem but if you seem to be damaging the bark by pulling the needles you can cut them just above the base. The bit that is left will fall off in a few weeks.
You have also taken off some small branches. Sometimes it is better to leave the smaller ones and cut the big, thick ones but that depends on what you are aiming for.
The main trunk of your tree is very straight and vertical. Is that what you want in your pine bonsai? Sometimes it can be better to cut the main trunk out and use one of the side branches to grow a replacement trunk. That will give a natural looking bend in the trunk and will give some taper to the tree but it will add a couple of years to the development of a much better bonsai.

[jessepap]

Should I keep plucking most of the needles on the under braches to create some space between the braches?

I don't think you have a plan. Where you go from here will depend on the plan for this tree. Otherwise you are just making random changes for the sake of something to do. Pulling more needles will not hurt the tree but it may not move you toward a goal.
A little sap is not usually a problem but if you seem to be damaging the bark by pulling the needles you can cut them just above the base. The bit that is left will fall off in a few weeks.
You have also taken off some small branches. Sometimes it is better to leave the smaller ones and cut the big, thick ones but that depends on what you are aiming for.
The main trunk of your tree is very straight and vertical. Is that what you want in your pine bonsai? Sometimes it can be better to cut the main trunk out and use one of the side branches to grow a replacement trunk. That will give a natural looking bend in the trunk and will give some taper to the tree but it will add a couple of years to the development of a much better bonsai.

I think you are right re the plan. Probably fairly lost still when it comes to something other than the theory!

I didn't think taking off a few little braches was a good idea after the fact but they seemed to be growing sort of underneath or right where the branch met the truck so wasn't sure they were ideal braches..
Hmmm

This is what I would love to work towards - is it possible with my tree?

[shibui]

OK. Now we have some goal to work towards.
I suspect your goal tree was developed bu growing and pruning. Note that the base is thicker than the trunk above the first branch which suggests the main trunk has been pruned off at some stage.
Here's my impression of where that tree has come from.

InkedInkedyatubusa pine_LI 2.jpg

The tree once had a trunk like yours now. from the lowest whorl of branches only the 2 branches were left and the main trunk. Red indicates the right branch, Black shows what was once the left branch and blue shows where the original trunk was.
The trunk was allowed to grow to get the stem to thicken. When the trunk was thickened enough the original (blue ) trunk was pruned off right down to the 2 first branches. Then the left branch was wired upward to make a new trunk line. Right branch may have been pruned to get more buds to provide closer ramification. At some stage the tree was repotted on a new angle to make the initial trunk angle look better.

i suspect the grower intends to make another reduction cut to get better ramification and another bend in the trunk. Note the smaller bendy branch marked in red in this virt. I think the grower intends to remove the higher portion of the trunk at some stage. There is a side branch (red) that has been wired upright and has some new bends ready to become the new apex.

Inkedyatubusa pine2_LI.jpg

I can see that the upper section has been allowed to grow without any pruning for a full year to give increased thickness to the entire trunk below while the branches and the replacement apex have all been slowed by selective pruning.

There are other possible ways to create a bonsai but I think this process of grow and cut back to a side branch is the most common way to develop a good pine bonsai.
You can do a similar thing with your tree. Leave the entire top alone for now. Reduce the lowest (ore second lowest if you want a slightly taller tree) cluster of branches to leave just 2 branches and the trunk. in a year or 2 or 3 when the trunk is thick enough cut the main trunk to leave just the 2 branches. Wire one upward as the new trunk. Wire the remaining branch as a branch. Optional repot to adjust the initial trunk angle.
Let it grow again but, over the next 2 or 3 years, select new branches and a new apex and wire those into appropriate positions. Leave the top to grow as long and strong as possible to increase the trunk thickness again. Eventually cut out the sacrifice apex to leave your chosen prepared apex as the top of the new bonsai.
In case you are counting up all the years of growth and pruning and thinking that sound like a long project, good bonsai are not created in a single session. Most are the result of years of growing and pruning.

Again I say, it is quite difficult to illustrate this online. It will be far easier to show so it is far better for anyone to look for a reliable and experienced mentor to help.

[jessepap]

Thanks Shibui - fantastic information and i follow and understand what you are saying. i think i am getting my head around what you are saying.

my issue now is not completing taking a wrecking ball at the tree and trying to leave it alone!

prior to seeing your post last night i thought i would mark up a photo of the tree and how i thought it might look - this was prior to reading about leaving the top for trunk thickness - i think i was thinking about making something happen now and not showing any patience. i will post how i marked up the tree - i am sure you might find it humorous how an amateur thinks about this sort of thing! the red marks indicate a chop and the blue obviously show branches.. Would this just be a complete butcher job?

IMG_7178.jpg

After reading your email this morning i marked up what i think is per your advice on creating a new trunk and 2 lower branches below.

IMG_7179.jpg

so really it would be only taking off the back lower branches off the tree now and really just leaving the rest of to now grow and establish per photo two and your below response?



I also found inspiration in this tree which i think looks great too - probably not a classic bonsai but i like this as well.

IMG_7171.jpg

[shibui]

You could certainly grow something like that last picture. Note the huge lump up near the top of the trunk. That's from leaving lots of branches at that spot for too long. Swollen lumps do not look good so we try to remove any extra branches as soon as possible to try to prevent excessive local thickening.

That tree may even have been grown in a similar way to your first virt. I noted that you have left opposite branches at each level. That's not good for several reasons and they are referred to in bonsai as bar branches. Bar branches stop our eyes from moving up a trunk and make the viewer's subconscious mind uneasy so trees with bar branches generally don't look good. Bar branches also tend to thicken the trunk at that spot so we get reverse taper or bulges like that other tree has. Only 1 branch from each layer wherever possible.
You could follow your original drawing. You will probably end up with a tree similar to the final picture in less time that my plan. Your tree, your choice as always.

There are many ways to grow a pine. Some achieve better results than others. There's usually several ways to achieve a good result too but I have had best results with the grow and chop method so yes, allow the top part of your tree to grow without pruning until either the trunk reaches desired thickness OR those bottom branches stop growing or look weak. That can be a real possibility when the top grows really strong as the tree is trying to become the tallest in the forest and low branches are just a waste of space for tall trees. If that occurs you need to suppress the top to get strength back to the lower branches again.
At some stage you'll cut the whole trunk off just above those lowest branches and make a start on your tree with just those branches.
I notice you have 3 branches down there in blue. That's OK for a while but eventually you'll just want 2 of the best placed to make the tree. plenty of time to do that later unless it looks like that spot is getting thicker than the trunk below.

[jessepap]

Thanks Shibui - i have been eagerly awaiting your posts because they are full of so much useful information. If your sick of me yet let me know!

I have had another quick go at a drawing on my tree which i have prepared on the basis of a chop now approach and not letting the top just grow and thicken. i am trying to envision how the tree would look with these major branches taken off and then whether i would be sitting back and wishing i had just left it to grow and develop...

is this more of what you have described in regards to keeping one branch at each level vs multiple?

IMG_7180.jpg

what i cant really get my head around is in the attached picture is this something that someone would realistically do trying to create a bonsai? or is it just being inpatient and doing something for the sake of it that just would not be done? is this even what someone would think about doing? ie if i chop am i on at least somewhat of a pathway to success?

OR is the reality of it that its best to leave this little tree alone for a while and let it grow on the top and aim at keeping it alive and re-assess at a later date!!?

in regards to the chop now approach - i assume the trunk will still thicken over time just not as much as if its left now to grow?

[shibui]

If your sick of me yet let me know!

Will do. thanks for your permission. I've spent today struggling up and down a very, very steep hill blacking out after a lightning strike caused a fire yesterday Maybe someone younger should have been doing that but it is what I signed on to do as a CFA volunteer so while the body can cope I'll keep on. Anyway, I'm about buggered this evening. Legs, ankles, toes and back are all tired and sore. Did I mention the slope was close to vertical? well maybe not quite that steep However I still have enough energy and enthusiasm to put together one more reply. Not only for you but also for others who will read this thread. When I stop posting replies you'll know I've had enough

There are many roads to good bonsai. What you are proposing would be OK. It would slow growth a bit because you are taking off a lot of solar panels and food factories that could make the tree grow.
You now have the idea of only having one branch at each level of the tree but maybe you have not yet grasped the idea of using the trunk as a sacrifice branch and future removal of the entire trunk. For that you need to keep 2 branches somewhere so that when you chop the trunk out you'll still have a branch and another to make a new trunk.

i am trying to envision how the tree would look with these major branches taken off and then whether i would be sitting back and wishing i had just left it to grow and develop...

Never look back and wish i did not. Every action opens a new host of possibilities. Whatever you decide to do will have consequences but will also open new possibilities.

what i cant really get my head around is in the attached picture is this something that someone would realistically do trying to create a bonsai? or is it just being inpatient and doing something for the sake of it that just would not be done? is this even what someone would think about doing? ie if i chop am i on at least somewhat of a pathway to success?

Yes, many would do that. Yes, I believe it is being impatient and doing something for the sake of doing something but that doesn't mean it is wrong, just not what I'd do now at this stage in my bonsai journey. If you make those chops you will still be on the path to bonsai. Just a different and possibly slower path - see above on reasons for leaving more on the tree (any developing tree)


Let's look at the development of one of the trees I posted earlier, just to try to muddy the waters a little more.

IMGP6283c_LI (2).jpg

Originally the trunk was straight up (blue) The lowest whorl of branches (red) was reduced to just 1 branch (green) and the main trunk (blue) This is what you propose in your latest virt so that is not only possible but good in some circumstances. note that in this case those first branches were really low and probably inappropriate to have a first branch of my bonsai way down there so all other branches are gone now. All the branches on the blue trunk were left to grow. No point taking any off because I knew I would cut that off completely at some stage. everything that grows on that trunk will contribute to thickening that lowest section of the trunk.

Also the lowest remaining branch was allowed to grow (green) but the first whorl of branches was reduced to 2 side branches and the main branch (leave 3 at that junction for a start) (remove red side branches) Darker green allowed to grow without any pruning because I know I will cut it off at some stage. As this is a yatsubusa I've drawn in lots of branches at each whorl. For ordinary black pines and other tree species you will probably only have a couple at each node.

When the trunk has thickened sufficiently I pruned off the old trunk (blue) completely and repotted so the trunk is at an angle and the new trunk (previous green branch) is now more upright.
When the new trunk has thickened sufficiently the dark green section was pruned. Not that this time I've left it as jin. Maybe it will stay, maybe it will go. Try to ignore the extra branch that's in there for the moment. It may stay and one of the other branches go or it might go. This one is still developing.

[jessepap]

Fantastic Shibui - thank you. Sounds like you had a big day with the fires.

All of the information has been invaluable - i keep tossing up between leaving the tree now to grow and do nothing vs do something and cut... i think i might take the do nothing approach for now and just try and grow the tree. i am sure my mind might change again but that it is for now. do nothing and see how it goes. keep trying to learn and understand bonsai and hope that the tree doesn't die in the meantime i guess...

it does feel like the do nothing approach isn't really getting me anywhere now but i understand it takes many years to develop a tree. With the way the tree currently looks it does not remotely resemble anything bonsai which I thought it might.

Lets see how it grows and go from there. i have many more questions but they can be for another time