JBP - Yatsubusa advice for my pine

[jessepap]

Hi all

so i am new here and new to bonsai.

Today i went to nursery and bought myself a Pinus Thunbergii Yatsubusa. After much research on the topic i decided this tree because i love the look and wanted a pine.

Despite watching lots of youtube vids (i have seen Ryan Neil Lecture) and reading lots of articles i am still a little stuck on where to start. i get the basic and novice theories but with my tree now i am still not really sure where to start specifically. i understand patience is key etc but i still think the tree needs some work now to begin the ever so slow process.

The Ryan Neil was great for general knowledge but i still feel slightly lost with my tree.

i would be very grateful for some guidance on where to go and how to treat my new tree.

how old does this tree look? 3 years? Does it look like a good tree overall?

i think i need some needle picking as the tree seems very thick and crowded. pics attached.

Ant advice would be fantastic! Thanks guys.

[Ryceman3]

Welcome jessepap!
For optimal advice it would be best to chuck your location in your profile so advice can be directed to your climate etc... different stuff can happen at different times depending on where you live.
So you went with a pine for your first bonsai - brave choice, I like it! Yatsubusa is a version of the traditional JBP which I think can be a little slower growing but on the plus side they produce plenty of buds which means plenty of options for bonsai.
You can needle pluck now for sure to thin things out a bit and make it a bit easier to see what you have under all that foliage. It looks like a healthy little tree... not old for sure but from what I can see it has lots of potential underneath all that green. I wouldn’t be doing too much in terms of branch selection/pruning at this time of year, but if you do decide to thin those needles out a tad you might be able to give yourself a better look in order to consider your future strategy.
Best of luck, thanks for posting - feel free to update as you do stuff and have more questions.

[shibui]

Yatsubusa is not so much dwarf as a variety that produces way more buds than normal black pines. All those buds growing share the available energy so the shoots don't grow as long. The down side is that you need to keep thinning out where you get multiple buds. Lots of shoots in one spot usually leads to swelling and the dreaded reverse taper.
Yatsubusa is almost always grafted. I can see a spot on the trunk where I suspect the graft is located. Good news is it looks to be a nice neat graft so hopefully grows to produce a clean trunk.
First order of business with yatsubusa is to reduce multiple branches. That can be a bit traumatic when you've just spent good money buying a bushy tree and i'm telling you to cut off maybe more than half of it.
Where you go depends what you expect from your tree. There is never just one 'right' way to grow a bonsai. There are many possible shapes and sizes you could grow and often more than one way to achieve each of them.
It is probably 3-5 years old so still a baby. There's not much to judge the scale of size but I guess the trunk is only around 2 cm thick? which is not really much as a base for an impressive bonsai.
Broad option 1. You may want to allow it to grow aggressively for a few years to get a thicker trunk. In that case I would minimize pruning and allow the apex to grow as much as possible for a couple of years while maintaining a couple of branches down low that will eventually become the tree when the main trunk (sacrifice) is removed after the trunk has thickened sufficiently.
Broad option 2. If you really want to start on the road to a small bonsai now (and most beginners do) the first task is to remove excess branches so that all forks are only 2 or, at most, 3. That's the main trunk and 1 or possibly 2 branches at any fork. Look at the tree. You will see that at each junction there is 4-6 branches and the main trunk. Those areas are referred to as whorls and you need to cut off all but 2 at each junction. I normally take the opportunity to cut off the longest ones which usually have a bare 'neck' at the base. no buds will ever sprout from that bare area so you can't get good ramification if you keep those ones. The shorter, weaker ones will have needles nearly down to the base so those are much better to work with as new buds can form anywhere there are (or sometimes where there have been) needles. You can use the opportunity to make some taper in the trunk by cutting the main trunk and leaving 2 smaller side branches. 1 will be wired up as the new trunk, the other will become the branch. Branches will be long because they have not been pruned. You can cut long branches back to leave just a few needles near the tip. New buds will grow from the base of those needles which will give you shorter branching and more density closer in.
It is actually a little late in the season to be shortening pines now. That is much better in late spring or early summer so the new buds have a chance to grow through summer.

All this will probably be a bit confusing for a beginner as pines are grown quite differently to most other type of tree and yatsubusa is slightly different to other pines. We can try to work through the process here but it would definitely help if you had first hand access to someone who knows this variety because it is far easier to show than to write.

[jessepap]

thanks so much for the replies so far.

i am not even quite sure what option to take with the tree - to grow now and leave alone or to try and bonsai...

when you say remove multiple branches - is the aim to have a single set of branches coming off the trunk?

I think my problem is i cant visualise what the tree might look like - all i see is a tree with lots of branches and needles. The needles literally cover every inch of the tree, they are all over the truck and very thick. Do i just leave this to maybe grow and trunk thicken for a while? If not where do i start to pluck?!

Re the graft - there is a little stump at the graft - would i cut this off so the truck is more smooth & can heal?

i find it hard that most of the videos etc seem to focus more on older and established black pines as opposed to a young and bushy one like this.

i am excited but confused at the same time about how to tackle this tree.

would more pics be of assistance?

[MJL]

Hi Jessepap,

Welcome to AusBonsai and the the hobby.

While I have been playing around with bonsai for 7 or so years, I am new to pines too.

It took me ages to get to pines due to my lack of understanding (and therefore fear) of how they are managed. I was then gifted a couple of trees and the bug caught... but I didn't know what to do. So I read and read, I asked experienced people at the clubs that I am a members of and I am also taking some classes/workshops with an experienced pine bonsai expert.

Reading your your post it is clear that you are excited and confused. There's no need to rush, indeed, with that confusion - perhaps it is better pause and just enjoy looking at and studying the tree that you have purchased. You won't lose anything by slowing down now - better to act with a little more knowledge and information - which is exactly why you are writing this post and asking for advice.

I see that you are from SA. I was lucky to meet some wonderful folks from the SA bonsai community back in 2019 at the native bonsai conference in Melbourne. They are friendly and knowledgeable people; perhaps reach out and visit a few clubs locally. Generally clubs will allow you to visit before joining to get a feel for the joint.

Also, I have found the articles found at the links in this thread to be very helpful but be mindful that the are written in a different hemisphere so the the timings need to be adjusted accordingly. https://www.ausbonsai.com.au/forum/view ... ry#p273285

Anyway Jeesepap - great that you have come to the hobby and be assured there's help at hand - it's the combination of forums like this, participating at your local clubs, reading article articles and observing your tree that will turn confusion and muddy waters into a clear flowing stream .... or perhaps a little less muddy!

Cheers,

Mark

[gnichols]

thanks so much for the replies so far.

i am not even quite sure what option to take with the tree - to grow now and leave alone or to try and bonsai...

when you say remove multiple branches - is the aim to have a single set of branches coming off the trunk?

I think my problem is i cant visualise what the tree might look like - all i see is a tree with lots of branches and needles. The needles literally cover every inch of the tree, they are all over the truck and very thick. Do i just leave this to maybe grow and trunk thicken for a while? If not where do i start to pluck?!

Re the graft - there is a little stump at the graft - would i cut this off so the truck is more smooth & can heal?

i find it hard that most of the videos etc seem to focus more on older and established black pines as opposed to a young and bushy one like this.

i am excited but confused at the same time about how to tackle this tree.

would more pics be of assistance?

The choices are yours to make ultimately. The tutorials you see on YouTube are mostly on developed trees and you are at the development stage to get them to that point.

Shibui gave some good advice. If you want to thicken it up (development) let it grow, but like he said be wary of reverse taper - multiple branches at the same point. Part of the development stage involves getting some movement. Take a look at some JBP that you really like the look of and use that as inspiration. If you put movement in all of your branches during the development stage it will give you more options when you're ready to style/refine it.

Join a club.

Sent from my SM-G570F using Tapatalk

[shibui]

For the moment you can leave all the needles on the tree. Pine needles live for about 3 years. The ones on the trunk are already about 2 years old so they will probably turn brown and fall off either this autumn or next. That will save you the bother and they won't d any harm in the meantime.

There is no need to rush anything with this young tree. You can take time to think, study the options and seek advice. It will be OK for a couple of years if that's how long it takes.

when you say remove multiple branches - is the aim to have a single set of branches coming off the trunk?

Look at some bonsai pictures. You will see that most have only one branch from each spot on the trunk then another single branch from a place further up the trunk then another, etc to the top of the tree. Having 2 or more branches growing close together at the same level is not only distracting for our eyes to look at but will lead to thickened trunk at that spot. There have been lots of threads here about this subject but I can't find any good ones just now. I do know that Grant Bowie always referred to this as 2x2 pruning because every junction was only allowed to be a 2 way junction. i'll also try to find some photos to illustrate.

Pruning off the dead remains of the old trunk at the graft site will allow the trunk to heal just a fraction quicker.

You are absolutely correct about the huge amount of info about advanced pines and little about developing pines. I know we have discussed this on Ausbonsai but again, I can't find suitable threads for you. Maybe someone else has bookmarked some and can add the links.

South Aus members may be already be aware that I will be leading workshops for SA Bonsai on May 2 and 3 and also a demo for their May meeting on Tuesday 5th. I can deliver any Adelaide tree orders while I'm there but I don't really want to cart a whole lot of trees just on spec so have a look at the catalogues or talk to me about what else might be available.

[SquatJar]

There is also a great bonsai nursery in Adelaide that does regular pine and beginner classes if you want something more structured. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to name drop but if you google you will easily find it. Has a lovely Vietnamese cafe attached out the front too.

[shibui]

I believe you are able make reference to businesses if you wish. Blatant promotion is not acceptable but occasional mention of people and nurseries you have had good experiences with if great for us and them.

I've just taken a few photos to illustrate points for this thread.
First a couple of Yatsubusa JBPs that I'm developing. Both have been allowed to grow quite tall then the main trunk was pruned down to a couple of convenient branches - 1 becomes the new trunk the other is a branch on the developing bonsai.

The first is smaller but that trunk is around 4cm diam.

IMGP6283.JPG

Next tree is a bit thicker but the trunk has a slight reverse taper close to the ground.

IMGP6284.JPG

IMGP6285.JPG

You can see where the old trunk that helped to thicken this tree was cut and convereted to jin. You can also see where extra branches were cut but the trunk has still thickened where that whorl was growing - just between my fingers.You can also see that pruning like this gives the tree bends without having to resort to wiring.

These are just ordinary JBP but will hopefully serve to illustrate pruning for developing pines.
The first is on a field grown pine so shoots are really strong. You can see that thickening has already started. Even if I prune the extras off now the callus from the wounds healing will make the bulge even worse. Fortunately this is a sacrifice branch so it will be cut off completely at some stage.

IMGP6287.JPG

The next one is pot grown. Again, I'm not worried about that upper whorl of strong branches because it is almost certain I'll cut the whole centre trunk off at some stage and grow the tree from those lowest branches

IMGP6289.JPG

Pictures below are actually a sacrifice branch on a JBP I'm developing but it will serve to show how branch whorls can be thinned.

IMGP6296.JPG

IMGP6297.JPG

The central trunk has a long, bare 'neck'. No buds will grow on that bare section so unless I want a really big bonsai with branches a long way apart I'm going to cut that off and replace it with one of the smaller branches at the base.

IMGP6298.JPG

That still leaves me with 3 strong branches and a couple of smaller ones. That's way too many and will cause more thickening if they all grow so I choose 1 to be the new trunk and 1 of the smaller ones for the branch at that spot.

IMGP6299.JPG

IMGP6300.JPG

The lower whorl also has too many shoots. In this case the main trunk is nice and short, maybe from previous pruning or maybe just lucky? There are a couple of strong branches and several really weak ones. As a bonus the stronger ones both have healthy needles near the base. New buds can grow where there are healthy needles if I prune the main leader. For now I've removed one of the stronger branches and pruned the other so it will sprout more shoots close to the trunk. I've left the weak shoots there. They won't cause too much thickening while they are small but if they start to grow now that I've removed the competition one of them might make an even better branch that the stronger one.

IMGP6302.JPG

This is probably not the best illustration because those 2 layers of branches are very close together. The branches I've left may still be close enough to cause the trunk to swell. If this was a developing bonsai I would keep a close eye on it and probably remove more branches if I saw unwanted thickening but that would depend entirely on whether I had other nearby branches to use in the styling and what style of bonsai I was trying to achieve. Remember, there's rarely a single right solution in bonsai.

[jessepap]

Broad option 2. If you really want to start on the road to a small bonsai now (and most beginners do) the first task is to remove excess branches so that all forks are only 2 or, at most, 3. That's the main trunk and 1 or possibly 2 branches at any fork. Look at the tree. You will see that at each junction there is 4-6 branches and the main trunk. Those areas are referred to as whorls and you need to cut off all but 2 at each junction. I normally take the opportunity to cut off the longest ones which usually have a bare 'neck' at the base. no buds will ever sprout from that bare area so you can't get good ramification if you keep those ones. The shorter, weaker ones will have needles nearly down to the base so those are much better to work with as new buds can form anywhere there are (or sometimes where there have been) needles. You can use the opportunity to make some taper in the trunk by cutting the main trunk and leaving 2 smaller side branches. 1 will be wired up as the new trunk, the other will become the branch. Branches will be long because they have not been pruned. You can cut long branches back to leave just a few needles near the tip. New buds will grow from the base of those needles which will give you shorter branching and more density closer in.
It is actually a little late in the season to be shortening pines now. That is much better in late spring or early summer so the new buds have a chance to grow through summer.

Am i right in thinking there are 3 whorls in this tree? i almost see like 3 plates/sets of branches with the top apex of branches being the obvious biggest with the main shoot going up.

i think what makes it a little more difficult in my mind to see is that the tree is so full and thick of needles - im not really sure if i would be plucking these out - all the needs in sort of the middle of the tree coming off the main trunk all the way up the tree.

i am starting to get a feel after more and more reading and understanding the usual terms etc.

[jessepap]

For the moment you can leave all the needles on the tree. Pine needles live for about 3 years. The ones on the trunk are already about 2 years old so they will probably turn brown and fall off either this autumn or next. That will save you the bother and they won't d any harm in the meantime.

There is no need to rush anything with this young tree. You can take time to think, study the options and seek advice. It will be OK for a couple of years if that's how long it takes.

when you say remove multiple branches - is the aim to have a single set of branches coming off the trunk?

Look at some bonsai pictures. You will see that most have only one branch from each spot on the trunk then another single branch from a place further up the trunk then another, etc to the top of the tree. Having 2 or more branches growing close together at the same level is not only distracting for our eyes to look at but will lead to thickened trunk at that spot. There have been lots of threads here about this subject but I can't find any good ones just now. I do know that Grant Bowie always referred to this as 2x2 pruning because every junction was only allowed to be a 2 way junction. i'll also try to find some photos to illustrate.

Pruning off the dead remains of the old trunk at the graft site will allow the trunk to heal just a fraction quicker.

You are absolutely correct about the huge amount of info about advanced pines and little about developing pines. I know we have discussed this on Ausbonsai but again, I can't find suitable threads for you. Maybe someone else has bookmarked some and can add the links.

South Aus members may be already be aware that I will be leading workshops for SA Bonsai on May 2 and 3 and also a demo for their May meeting on Tuesday 5th. I can deliver any Adelaide tree orders while I'm there but I don't really want to cart a whole lot of trees just on spec so have a look at the catalogues or talk to me about what else might be available.

Thank you.

I think i understand re the one branch coming off the trunk in one space - so the current apex on this tree where there are say 4 or 5 branches coming out from the same space in different directions in a big no no long term. however if for the moment i am planning on growing the tree and not shaping etc then it is OK to leave as these branches will help thicken the tree but eventually be cut off at a point in time.

I can make this choice really anytime cant I?

[greg27]

There is also a great bonsai nursery in Adelaide that does regular pine and beginner classes if you want something more structured. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to name drop but if you google you will easily find it. Has a lovely Vietnamese cafe attached out the front too.

Bonsai Mujo, on Main North Road - they run a year-long pine course with sessions in each season. I haven't done any of their courses but have had a wander around the nursery a few times and there are some lovely trees there.

[jessepap]

There is also a great bonsai nursery in Adelaide that does regular pine and beginner classes if you want something more structured. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to name drop but if you google you will easily find it. Has a lovely Vietnamese cafe attached out the front too.

Bonsai Mujo, on Main North Road - they run a year-long pine course with sessions in each season. I haven't done any of their courses but have had a wander around the nursery a few times and there are some lovely trees there.

I actually have been there twice before i purchased my Yatsubusa. I bought a very small juniper already in a little bonsai pot which I might also post about separately. The person there also seemed very nice. I might have to have a look at what pine sessions they run and what they cover. Thanks.

[treeman]

Ant advice would be fantastic!

Plant it in the garden and get a normal Black Pine. Yatsubusas are not worth the trouble.

[jessepap]

Ant advice would be fantastic!

Plant it in the garden and get a normal Black Pine. Yatsubusas are not worth the trouble.

Thanks for the post Mike. Are you able to elaborate why the Yatsubusas are not worth the trouble?

Bear in mind i am not a bonsai master and probably never will be and this tree isn't going to go on show anywhere.