Juniper squamata styling and help

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Juniper squamata styling and help

Post by jessepap »

Hi all

Over the weekend I also purchased this plant on a recommended plant for beginners along with some tubestock I purchased.

I don't want to just grow to thicken this one, I want to chop style and wire!!

It's very bushy which makes it harder for me to know where to go.

Can anyone give a vision how they could see what this tree could look like after a chop and wire?
Anyone have any pics maybe of where you see this tree possibly ending up?

The trunk has a low bend and I think this could possibly lean maybe to the left making that side of the tree the front of the tree possibly?!

I would love to see what you guys think about what a bush like this could look like with a bit of work? I get it's my tree and I can make the calls but would love some input and or pics in regards to options on its potential!
:tu:
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Re: Juniper squamata styling and help

Post by Raging Bull »

Hi jesse, The first thing I would do is thin it out a bit. Remove some of the smaller branches and leave ones you think you may want to develop, choosing carefully if you want to lean it or do a cascade so you don't have branches growing down under the cascade. That makes it easier to see the main structure of the tree. Then with the branches you've kept, take out any smaller branches growing out of the crutch where the branch joins the trunk. If there are a couple of larger branches near the base keep them as sacrificials to thicken the bottom of the trunk. Make sure they are at different levels or you may get inverse taper. Be aware that junipers are very slow at thickening the trunk to get that classic taper. Then take a look at the root structure to work out which will be the best front for the tree by clearing a little of the soil around the base to expose the roots. Then I would give it a rest and just study the tree for a couple of weeks until you've worked out what you want to do with it.
Below is a progression of pics of a j. pyramidalis bought from a garden shop in 2016. Hope this helps you a bit.
Good luck with yours. Cheers, Frank.
2016.12.15 01e.jpg
2016.12.15 02e.jpg
2017.02.07 02e.jpg
2017.04.18e .jpg
2018.04.27 02e.jpg
2018.11.06 02e .JPG
2020.02.18 02e.JPG
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Re: Juniper squamata styling and help

Post by greg27 »

Hey Jesse, in addition to Frank's awesome progression shots you might find this search of the competition forums helpful: https://www.ausbonsai.com.au/forum/sear ... mit=Search

I really like going through the competition threads because generally they include a photo before any work was done, some progression shots and then an end result so you can get an idea of what to do, and what you should end up with based on that.
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Re: Juniper squamata styling and help

Post by shibui »

First thing to recognise with young stock like this is that there is no wrong answer. Anything you do will be OK and will move the tree toward becoming a bonsai.
Next thing is that roots are of prime importance - even in junipers where far less emphasis is placed on nebari.
You should dig down to find good surface roots. Sometimes you have to go past the first root(s) to find better ones.
With commercial stock sometimes the roots are not where you expect them to be. Apprentices and underpaid staff spend hours on end potting small plants into larger containers. You can imagine they often get to the stage where they don't really care where the roots end up in the pot - just throw the little plant in and top up with more mix and then do it again and again and again. As long as the leaves are above the pot who cares?

I have had the experience of styling a really nice small bonsai only to discover there is another 10cm of dead straight trunk under the soil so that really nice small bonsai now looks like a lollipop on a stick or topiary :x
Always find the roots first and work up from there.

After that you can please yourself because there really isn't anything solid or structural to work with here. Thin out some foliage closer to the trunk so you can see a bit better. Remove branches that are close to others so there's a bit more space. Shorten long branches so they will grow better secondary branching closer to the trunk where you want foliage pads.
Sit back and wait.
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Re: Juniper squamata styling and help

Post by jessepap »

Thanks guys.
I dug down a little and discovered more trunk and some roots.
The roots seem thick and pretty tangled about.
I think this is the front of the tree with the bend going left.

Can you tell by the attached pics?
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Re: Juniper squamata styling and help

Post by shibui »

I don't like to offer advice just from a photo. It is almost impossible to get a full idea of the 3D movement of the trunk from a 2D picture.
From what I can see you have chosen a better shaped trunk than most :tu:
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Re: Juniper squamata styling and help

Post by jessepap »

shibui wrote: February 18th, 2020, 8:04 pm I don't like to offer advice just from a photo. It is almost impossible to get a full idea of the 3D movement of the trunk from a 2D picture.
From what I can see you have chosen a better shaped trunk than most :tu:
From what you can see would it make sense that the trunk goes towards the left?! That's my take!?

I must have been blessed with some ridiculously good luck then if it's a good trunk shape :palm: :o :tu:
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Re: Juniper squamata styling and help

Post by jessepap »

Raging Bull wrote: February 18th, 2020, 11:00 am Hi jesse, The first thing I would do is thin it out a bit. Remove some of the smaller branches and leave ones you think you may want to develop, choosing carefully if you want to lean it or do a cascade so you don't have branches growing down under the cascade. That makes it easier to see the main structure of the tree. Then with the branches you've kept, take out any smaller branches growing out of the crutch where the branch joins the trunk. If there are a couple of larger branches near the base keep them as sacrificials to thicken the bottom of the trunk. Make sure they are at different levels or you may get inverse taper. Be aware that junipers are very slow at thickening the trunk to get that classic taper.
very helpful thanks mate. and what a great tree you have there!

I have started some of the thinning process...
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Re: Juniper squamata styling and help

Post by shibui »

An important bonsai styling skill is to recognise that just because a tree is currently planted at that angle it does not Have to stay that way. If the tree looks better standing up straighter or leaning further them we can change the planting angle at the next repot. There are some limits to how much the planting angle can be changed but it is always worth holding the pot at various different angles to see if the tree looks better in some than in others.

As it is your tree probably will lean toward the left. If there's no real reason to change it you might as well work with it.
Trunks seem to look better when they bend slightly back away from the viewer then gradually come forward a little near the top so need to bear backward and forward trunk movement in mind when choosing the front. Sometimes we only concentrate on the left and right movement but bonsai is a 3D art. We need depth as well as width in our bonsai.
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Re: Juniper squamata styling and help

Post by jessepap »

The roots seem pretty thick around the top of the tree surface & i am fairly sure a root is coming out of the bottom of the pot.

would it also make sense to take this out of the pot, cut back the roots to say 50% and then re pot back with fresh decent soil?

or at this stage not point and continue to try and style then look at re-potting once the plant settles post chop? Note i have started to thin the foliage and some branches slowly.
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Re: Juniper squamata styling and help

Post by shibui »

I usually root prune junipers in spring. I know that some growers have been trialing autumn repotting and repotting other times but I still like to stick to the tried and true traditional timing.
Just because a root is showing at the bottom does not mean it is pot bound. One of the first places that roots show up is at the drain holes, well before the pot is actually full of roots.
I do encourage people with new plants to repot as soon as possible after they get a new plant so that all plants are in a known mix and you then also know what the roots are like instead of guessing. There are some who will advise 'only one insult per year' by which they mean either prune or repot in each year but not both. i have not found that to be necessary here as plants grow rapidly so I routinely prune and repot in the same season, often at the same time. there is some evidence that junipers recover from root pruning better if they have plenty of foliage so might be best not to prune a lot off then repot soon after. Pruning/ styling now then repotting in spring should be OK.

It is good that there are roots at the surface so now what you see is what you get and you can work out a shape for the trunk and branches.
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Re: Juniper squamata styling and help

Post by jessepap »

shibui wrote: February 20th, 2020, 8:44 pm I usually root prune junipers in spring. I know that some growers have been trialing autumn repotting and repotting other times but I still like to stick to the tried and true traditional timing.
Just because a root is showing at the bottom does not mean it is pot bound. One of the first places that roots show up is at the drain holes, well before the pot is actually full of roots.
I do encourage people with new plants to repot as soon as possible after they get a new plant so that all plants are in a known mix and you then also know what the roots are like instead of guessing. There are some who will advise 'only one insult per year' by which they mean either prune or repot in each year but not both. i have not found that to be necessary here as plants grow rapidly so I routinely prune and repot in the same season, often at the same time. there is some evidence that junipers recover from root pruning better if they have plenty of foliage so might be best not to prune a lot off then repot soon after. Pruning/ styling now then repotting in spring should be OK.

It is good that there are roots at the surface so now what you see is what you get and you can work out a shape for the trunk and branches.
excellent thanks shibui. i am going to concentrate on the top and some style and a re-pot then after winter with a hopefully better looking specimen.
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Re: Juniper squamata styling and help

Post by jessepap »

Hi all.
Whilst not complete I made an attempt at a chop and rough style with some wire.

Would love some feedback on where I have gone wrong and the general feel.

I had a bit of trouble with the wire and the middle set of braches doesn't seem quite right. I started at the bottom first and also tied the trunk to the pot in order to lift it straighter as it was on an odd lean.

The pads and follage are still is too thick and not spaced enough I don't think and I'm not certain at this point what to do with the top right of the tree. Hopefully some inspiration comes.

Pics attached.
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Re: Juniper squamata styling and help

Post by shibui »

Good start. i like that you have not gone overboard on cleaning out the branches. Some people strip everything all the way out to the tips :palm:

There are a number of things I'm picking up that may help.

The branches you have chosen are opposite each other. In bonsai we call that bar branching. Visually bar branches interrupt our eyes as they travel up the trunk and cause unconscious uneasiness. Our minds prefer to look at staggered branches. Physically those opposite branches will eventually cause the trunk to thicken more near the junctions and you'll end up with reverse taper which also does not look good. Avoid bar branches wherever possible.
The problem with really small bonsai is that there's just not enough room to fit in all the branches an not have them close together so you may just have to keep one or both pairs.

Visual depth: it looks like all the branches are currently to the sides so there is very little depth to the tree. Back branches are important to give a 3D feel to our trees. maybe one of those branches could be bent toward the back to give some depth?

Straight branches on a bendy trunk: Most of us start off this way but feel there's just something not quite right. turns out our subconscious mind knows that bendy trunks should have bendy branches because whatever elemental forces caused that trunk to grow sideways was also acting on the branches as they grew. Try to have a theme right through a bonsai. Straight branches look OK on a straight trunk but bent trunks deserve branches with some bends too. Bends can be up and down or back and forth (remember 3D!) or a combination.

Some hints on wiring may help.
Make turns of your wire a little closer together. That will help support the bends in the branches and trunks. Most experts talk about winding wire on at around 45 deg. In actual fact 45 is a little too close together but the wire you've wound on is closer to straight. Somewhere between will be much neater and more effective.

When wiring branches that are close together or opposite as you have here it is better NOT to go straight across to the other branch a you have done. When yo try to bend one of those branches down or back the one on the other side is likely to move in the opposite direction. A better solution is to wire a lower branch with one higher up so you can get at least a full turn of wire round the trunk before going out onto another branch. That will provide a much better anchor so that branches can be moved independently.
wiring effectively (and neatly) is quite an art and takes a few years to get it right.

We can talk about the top of the tree when you have had a chance to consider those suggestions.
As always, the tree is yours. These are just my opinions and you are entirely free to accept or ignore them.
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Re: Juniper squamata styling and help

Post by jessepap »

Thanks mate. Much to consider.

I did a drawing on paper first and I avoided the dreaded bar branches but in reality I seem to have missed the concept and now have opposite braches. It's hard to stick them back on!

I am wondering what it might look like if I took off the first bottom left brach and then the middle branch on the right side...

Would this leave too few branches do you you think?

I like and agree with the fact something needs to go toward the back. I also agree on the bends.

Because the pads are quite thick of follage I wonder if a bend mid way on the branch would be able to be noticed. I guess there is one way to find that out...
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