some pine projects

[shibui]

While doing the usual autumn needle removal and shoot reduction I've had to face a couple of projects that need some decisions.
I know it is difficult to give really good styling advice from photos but I would appreciate any constructive ideas on these pines.

1. Japanese red pine:
I've had this one for a few years now. It has been planted and trained at various angles and configurations but now that I have worked out how to manage pine growth the branches are becoming increasingly dense. Time for some hard decisions I think.
It is currently planted as a semi-cascade.

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Pros: the cascade branch is quite thick so works best as a trunk. a little different to the usual upright trees.
cons: the upright trunk is strong and detracts from the cascade section. Cascade trunk is quite straight and uninteresting. Conflict with the movement in the upright section?

In the past I've had it more upright.

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The nebari is currently one sided and would probably be better if the tree was more upright.

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Pros: Better nebari. Good trunk movement. Plenty of branch options
Cons: left branch is way too thick for an upright tree.


Current front is probably the better side to take advantage of the low trunk movement but here's the other sides to see if you can pick something I have not noticed yet.

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Top of the upright trunk is crowded but has plenty of possible branches to work with. Most could still be moved to work with most possible styling options so feel free to throw ideas in.

Next option is to change the angle to more upright and rotate the front clockwise about 45 deg.

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upper trunk from that front. Again, bending branches a bit should not be a problem.

Would still need to remove that strong branch now at rear. Other branches will need to be moved but I think that's still possible.

Feel free to chip in with ideas and thoughts. If you need to see more just ask.

[anthonyW]

I have gone with your first image with a 8 degree lift(up) this gets bottom trunk little more off horizontal and but still keeps the the top bit off vertical.....If mine i would bring the bottom pad a little back on the trunk as drawn, this i believe takes your eye off the straightish trunk, it works for me and the rest of the pads pretty neutral with small bias to the trunk inside as to not exaggerate bottom trunk line again (illusion)..with the other piece removed it works for me...quite nicely.

Anthony

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[Raging Bull]

Hi Neil,
My suggestion is to remove most of the top trunk just behind the first branch. This branch points back in the opposite direction of the cascade, and could then be developed into a small apex, with the cascade forming the long low side of the triangle. Below is a rather crude (sorry) drawing of what I mean .

Red Pine Cascade.jpg

[matlea]

If going for the more vertical orientation could grow it taller - maybe half as high again? and turn it into a literati style. First thick branch becomes a Jin. Just depends on what the roots are doing. A bit more time required with this option.

[Matt S]

I was looking at the more upright option, and since I like slanting pines, I drew a slanting pine:

shibui pine sketch.jpg

I agree that the cascading branch is too similar in thickness to the trunk, so it's either removed or the main trunk is allowed to grow faster to thicken it up.

Matt.

[MJL]

I am with the semi-cascade - and keeping part of that first branch for a new apex - which is where Jake LaMotta (Frank) is heading. Also, with the current nebari... it works with a cascade I reckon. The roots stretching off to the right, struggling to hold the tree falling to the left - does that make sense?

[shibui]

All the ideas make perfect sense and all are perfectly legitimate options. Thanks for those of you who have put your grey matter and design skills to the test.
I hope that one outcome of this exercise will be that everyone will be more aware that there are usually a number of different legitimate possible outcomes in any tree. That's one of the reasons people get stuck - too many options and they can't work out which is right or best.
God news people, the right option is always the one you choose. If you are undecided it just means that all the possibilities are equally good so just flip a coin and get on with making a bonsai - any bonsai.
The reason workshop leaders seem to make effortless decisions is that they just don't really care. It is not their tree so that makes the decision so much easier (for them).

I'll give it a bit longer if anyone else feels like putting something up

[melbrackstone]

I couldn't see it working as a semi cascade with such a straight trunk. Love what Matt has come up with, reckon that's the go.

[Pearcy001]

Here's an option Neil, a little more elegant? In my design you remove the current apex. You could grow the upper branch on before jining it to thicken the lower portion of the trunk if you desired. From looking at the other angles, rotating the tree slight forward toward the viewer should also put some more movement into the lower trunk. As I've said in some other threads of mine, I prefer the tree to grow the same direction as the trunk movement, as it looks more natural to me (IMO) like it could have actually occurred in nature. In saying that, this is art, and I don't think there should be any rules.

Cheers,
Pearcy.

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[anthonyW]

Your second image

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[Matt S]

Good discussion here and a nice collection of different ideas.

The reason workshop leaders seem to make effortless decisions is that they just don't really care. It is not their tree so that makes the decision so much easier (for them).

Ha, that's so true. It's so much easier to say "lose that branch" when you're not the one who spent years refining it!

Pearcy - that's a great option, I really like it. I will make a case though for slanting trees that have strong branches growing in the opposite direction to the trunk lean. I might have gone on about this before so apologies if that's the case.
A tree can slant for a number of reasons, for example leaning into the light, over a body of water or because of prevailing winds - in which case the branches will extend out in the direction of the trunk lean. But if a tree has been growing straight and then something pushes it over (like a storm), the surviving branches will grow back into the light, into the gap that's just been created. For me these trees have a sense of drama and energy about them which I really like, but as you said personal preference plays a big part. Looking at my own trees I have a mixture of both.
And after all that I think I prefer your option!

Matt.

[Ryceman3]

I saw this...

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... which made me think of something like this (in the future)...

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... obviously not in those colours, but just for illustration purposes. I’m making up a lot of stuff I can’t quite discern under the foliage but you get the idea, not sure it is better than anything else offered (I do like Pearcy’s pic) ... just something else to consider .
You might be thinking.... “that jin is bigger than the stub” on the lower right. Yep, it is. I saw a post on here Grant Bowie did a few years ago with manufacturing jins and it was inspiring!

[Pearcy001]

Pearcy - that's a great option, I really like it. I will make a case though for slanting trees that have strong branches growing in the opposite direction to the trunk lean. I might have gone on about this before so apologies if that's the case.
A tree can slant for a number of reasons, for example leaning into the light, over a body of water or because of prevailing winds - in which case the branches will extend out in the direction of the trunk lean. But if a tree has been growing straight and then something pushes it over (like a storm), the surviving branches will grow back into the light, into the gap that's just been created. For me these trees have a sense of drama and energy about them which I really like, but as you said personal preference plays a big part. Looking at my own trees I have a mixture of both.
And after all that I think I prefer your option!

Matt.

Completely agree Matt, that's the exact reason I prefer trees to continue growing in the same direction (I'm not saying always, I too have designed trees how you described. Some of my trees I design just to be crazy, with no reasoning at all). I completely agree with your decision/reasoning and knew it would be what you intended before you said it.

Another great example is the branches on black pines styled in Japan often growing down, it's not just the weight of the branch itself if you've ever been in winter. They utilise rope and bamboo support poles to hold up all the branches through the cold season, as the weight of the snow is what causes alot of the downward angle of black pine branching and causes them to snap. I'm only guessing, but I'm presuming this adds to part of the reasoning behind the branches of pine bonsai in Japan angling downward.

Back to our discussion. Anything is possible in nature, but I feel if a tree was growing upright to start with before it was blown over, the main trunkline that grew after would also change direction toward the sunlight, not just the branching. This would be particularly true if it was far enough over that it stopped all branching growing on the opposing side.

Like I said just my personal preference, although I do enjoy understanding the reasoning behind people's decisions/designs - Thanks for bringing it up!

Sorry for the minor hijack Neil, although I know you are all for threads generating discussion in order to get more people thinking.

Cheers,
Pearcy.



*Edit*
For anyone interested - Below are some photos of the pines in Japan being reinforced before the snow arrives, in order to stop branches dropping too low and snapping. I saw this done to EVERY branch on EVERY pine in the major citys and gardens - no matter how big or small.

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