Killing Black Pines
Posted: July 18th, 2020, 7:49 pm
So who here has killed a black pine......and how many?
Australian Bonsai Community
https://www.ausbonsai.com.au/forum/
https://www.ausbonsai.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=131&t=28743
Must just be me! It seems to be the only species i can kill on the regular.Ryceman3 wrote: ↑July 18th, 2020, 10:40 pm I’ve germinated over 200 from seed... Not that many really but the first 6 months or so I would say they are most vulnerable. Probably lost about a dozen, some due to drying out, some maybe due to stem cutting, others due to who knows what? As for older stuff I’ve picked up, nothing dead as yet ... and I have worked on them. Can you kill them? Sure. Is it easy? Not particularly. If you wanna talk casualties I would say JBP are close to indestructible in comparison to many natives (which I like too). They (JBP) seem to have adapted to life in a pot, great trees for bonsai IMHO. Maybe the best.
Nothing super mature here but my colander grown trees are in 50:50 pumice:orchaiata bark. In summer these get watered once a day. Sun for most of the day except late afternoon and I'll only cover them if the temps go above 38C.badabing888 wrote: ↑July 19th, 2020, 4:37 am What mixes are people using?
Last ditch effort is to go 1:1:1 pumice, lava rock, pine bark to ensure over watering is not a problem.
With an above type mix how often are people watering come summer time, say nov - april when in full sun and are people covering their pots to keep them cool in full sun?
This to me sounds like an issue with process that is causing the same result if you find it happens repeatedly. What that issue is, I have no idea but I will say a few things that pop into my head about JBP when I read your post :badabing888 wrote: ↑July 19th, 2020, 4:37 am It seems to be mostly 8-10 weeks after decandling mostly around march, they start to push new buds then essentially old needles yellow from the top and work their way down.
I'm 95% sure its a consistent root rot / general roots issue. The question is how to ensure the roots are very healthy!
I had 3 die on me this year out of about 20, but it is not the first year!
That doesn't sound like a great way to recover from a repot ... in other news, hope the dog is OK!?!badabing888 wrote: ↑July 19th, 2020, 4:37 am 1. Was likely due to a repot and then my damn dog decided to dig it out of the pot twice so it was sitting on the floor all day till i got home. That issue has been solved.
I think you are answering your own question here (and below) in terms of why your trees aren't as healthy as they could be. Looking into changing up your potting mix (if you haven't to this point) I think is a pretty reasonable course of action. If your tree doesn't have roots that are healthy/thriving, decandling will not give you a good outcome. A lot of people will forego decandling the same year they repot to give the tree a chance to recover/flourish.badabing888 wrote: ↑July 19th, 2020, 4:37 am 1. I had for 5 years (But was about 20 years old), followed basically the same watering schedule etc and it never got going this year.
I was so mad i put it aside and only pulled it out the pot today and noticed the root system was very small for a pine that had been in the pot for this long.
I think this is a possibility for sure
The 1:1:1 mix you speak of sounds fine, so long as you water in a way to make sure the tree doesn't dry out/stay too wet (and so we go around in a circle again ... ) How much to water and how often depends on so many things that it really is different for everybody. In a mix like that I would water 2 (possibly 3) times a day in temps above 38deg because my trees live on a roof exposed to full sun/wind etc and they would need that. Somebody in the next suburb may have the same temps but have their bonsai more sheltered and therefore only water once ...?badabing888 wrote: ↑July 19th, 2020, 4:37 am What mixes are people using?
Last ditch effort is to go 1:1:1 pumice, lava rock, pine bark to ensure over watering is not a problem.
With an above type mix how often are people watering come summer time, say nov - april when in full sun and are people covering their pots to keep them cool in full sun?
I am no expert on pines (or any Bonsai ) but what R3 and others are saying makes sense in the context of my limited knowledge. Can I just check that I am reading the above quote correctly. You are decandling in December and the tree is showing signs of yellowing by March ... or are you decandling in March? To my understanding, if you were decandling in March this would be too late to allow the tree to throw it's second flush before going dormant in Winter.badabing888 wrote: ↑July 19th, 2020, 4:37 am It seems to be mostly 8-10 weeks after decandling mostly around march, they start to push new buds then essentially old needles yellow from the top and work their way down.
Decandling in Early-mid Jan which is what i've been told suits Perth as the growing season runs till late april.You are decandling in December and the tree is showing signs of yellowing by March ... or are you decandling in March?
I have a range of ages some 2-3 years old in colanders some 15-20 years old in bonsai pots some in grow bags. I've only ever lost one's in bonsai pots that were "unexplained" i.e not being destroyed by the dog after a repot.KIRKY wrote: ↑July 19th, 2020, 2:11 pm There are a couple of questions for you firstly how old are your trees? Older trees do better with a mix like 50% pumice n 50% Akadama. Younger trees need more organics in the mix. Secondly how often do you repot? Third where are your trees kept? Full sun, shade. Also you are removing candles on trees with a poor root system? Trees that are unhealthy struggling root system shouldn’t be worked at all imo. Also what is the depth of your pots? Lots to consider.
100% its something i'm doing consistently that's incorrect. This autumn i changed a few things to try make sure the tree's don't get water logged in winter as this might be setting the ball in motion.
Correct i don't decandle unless a tree is healthy. Nice green needles etc.
In general i start late august 2-3 tea bags per medium sized tree. change every 8-10 weeks.Ryceman3 wrote: ↑July 19th, 2020, 11:25 am
- With the above in mind, you should be bumping up the fertiliser to maximise vigour in the tree prior to decandling. I'm not saying you haven't got a good fert regime going - but just that it is vital if you want the tree to give you a positive result after you decandle.
Yep my thoughts that the tree's root system really isn't in great shape and the act of decandling sets the ball rolling for the decline a short time later.Ryceman3 wrote: ↑July 19th, 2020, 11:25 am
- Pines can take a while to show visual signs they have died/are getting weak. The fact you notice this in March (I am assuming from visual clues) most likely means the tree was dead/struggling weeks before... which takes you back to mid-summer and the decandling period.
I've found the same thing and also if a tree is struggling it also requires less water as the entire cycle is compromised.Ryceman3 wrote: ↑July 19th, 2020, 11:25 am
- When it comes to watering, I find pines need less water after the decandling than they did before. Less needle volume/foliage ... less transpiration etc. If you don't alter your watering regime to "compensate" for that I would say there is a possibility you are overwatering at a critical point in the tree's season. This may lead to root issues (rot etc) that you speak of.
At this point i'm trying to go for as open mix as possible to avoid wet feet at all costs!Ryceman3 wrote: ↑July 19th, 2020, 11:25 am
- The other point that relates to the above is the mix. How coarse/fine is it and what kind of water retention do you get? I don't live in your neck of the woods so I wouldn't want to go on about what you should do in terms of mix, but in general pines like a free draining mix ... how you take that and adapt it to your environment is up to you!
badabing888 wrote: ↑July 19th, 2020, 4:37 am 1. Was likely due to a repot and then my damn dog decided to dig it out of the pot twice so it was sitting on the floor all day till i got home. That issue has been solved.
Dog's alive! i've just moved to raised bonsai stands now.
I think you are answering your own question here (and below) in terms of why your trees aren't as healthy as they could be. Looking into changing up your potting mix (if you haven't to this point) I think is a pretty reasonable course of action. If your tree doesn't have roots that are healthy/thriving, decandling will not give you a good outcome. A lot of people will forego decandling the same year they repot to give the tree a chance to recover/flourish.badabing888 wrote: ↑July 19th, 2020, 4:37 am 1. I had for 5 years (But was about 20 years old), followed basically the same watering schedule etc and it never got going this year.
I was so mad i put it aside and only pulled it out the pot today and noticed the root system was very small for a pine that had been in the pot for this long.I think this is a possibility for sureThe 1:1:1 mix you speak of sounds fine, so long as you water in a way to make sure the tree doesn't dry out/stay too wet (and so we go around in a circle again ... ) How much to water and how often depends on so many things that it really is different for everybody. In a mix like that I would water 2 (possibly 3) times a day in temps above 38deg because my trees live on a roof exposed to full sun/wind etc and they would need that. Somebody in the next suburb may have the same temps but have their bonsai more sheltered and therefore only water once ...?badabing888 wrote: ↑July 19th, 2020, 4:37 am What mixes are people using?
Last ditch effort is to go 1:1:1 pumice, lava rock, pine bark to ensure over watering is not a problem.
With an above type mix how often are people watering come summer time, say nov - april when in full sun and are people covering their pots to keep them cool in full sun?
Have I answered your question - I don't really think so, but I don't think I can definitively. Hopefully it gives you some stuff to think about though which might lead you down the right path.
Good luck!
This I think is the crux. Obviously you're not going to see white feeder roots under the soil on a dead tree, but the fact you say you've never seen them makes me think the roots never really take off and develop like they should?? Here's a shot of one of my 2 year old JBPs I pulled out of a pot to check this arvo. As you can see, it is FULL of roots (root pruned hard and repotted August last year). Plenty of mychorrizal fungi too, not essential but generally considered a very good sign - do you get that in your pots? The stuff you say about removing weeds and scraping back/replacing the top soil all sounds like good practise to me (I have heard of this strategy before - never done it but I can see the benefit it could have).badabing888 wrote: ↑July 20th, 2020, 2:21 am
When i pulled the tree from the pots they never look full of white feeder roots! Attached is the mix / root issues, this was obviously pulled out 4-5 months after it died in this case.
We will see how my other trees go coming into this growing season as they look better after paying more attention to the soil conditions coming into winter. I will try and slowly transition them to the pumice mix in the next few years.
Good news!badabing888 wrote: ↑July 19th, 2020, 4:37 am Dog's alive! i've just moved to raised bonsai stands now.