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Re: A discussion on propagating Japanese Black Pines from candles
Posted: March 15th, 2022, 12:10 pm
by squizzy
Ryceman3 wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 11:54 am
Thanks for the clarification Squizzy (and the pics).
I have seen similar stuff from him in other forums/places on the net. These are all definitely his stem cut seedling techniques.
He has a very elaborate set up and really is passionate about getting the best bases on his young stock, most (possibly all?) he starts by seed. There are only a couple of people I know getting the same results as him consistently ... another guy in America does a lot of his propagation under lights and using a whole heap of different controlled environments, fertiliser regimes and lighting set ups etc that produce a similar product. It's next level. I haven't seen anything like this kind of development in Australia, it might be around ... not sure. In any event, it's a little off-topic for this particular thread but his work is interesting nonetheless.
Hi ryceman.
It’s relevance from my point was that you can do this with the first flush of growth from a seedling. Also do you understand what he means by twice cut?
Squiz
I’m wondering if there is any benefit in striking summer candles using his methods?
Re: A discussion on propagating Japanese Black Pines from candles
Posted: March 15th, 2022, 1:20 pm
by Ryceman3
squizzy wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 12:10 pm
Hi ryceman.
It’s relevance from my point was that you can do this with the first flush of growth from a seedling. Also do you understand what he means by twice cut?
Squiz
I’m wondering if there is any benefit in striking summer candles using his methods?
I guess it is relevant in that it is essentially taking a pine cutting and propagating. It's just that you need to take the cutting from a seedling under this technique ... which means you need seed to begin with ... which is really hard to get ... which is why the option to develop new trees through the candles feels like a good area to look into ... and so the circle goes!
In terms of the "cutting twice" he is quite vague from what I've found on how this is done. I don't have a definitive answer, but I remember reading something from him about stem cutting (one cut), growing out (you hopefully get somewhere from 3-8 roots) then stem cut again (cut twice) above those new roots. He says the result is the plant goes into overdrive to produce more roots and you can double the number that come from the second cut site (6-16 roots). I think the time frame between cuts was something like 4-6 weeks?
I'd have to look up where I found/read that, but I think if I had a stem cut pine with 4+ roots I'd be reluctant to go again and try and double my money (unless I had plenty of seedlings and seeds to play with) ... once again access to seed makes these decisions less critical.
Don't know if that helps you at all or not. He has a number of threads on the Bonsai Nut forum you may or may not have seen where he talks a bit about this stuff. I guess you have to remember he's running a business so he's not going to want to give everything away and lose his competitive advantage ... you need to read between the lines a little I think.
EDIT: I had a quick look and found this link below which I think is somewhat helpful.
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/timin ... ngs.32362/
Re: A discussion on propagating Japanese Black Pines from candles
Posted: March 15th, 2022, 5:40 pm
by squizzy
Ryceman3 wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 1:20 pm
squizzy wrote: ↑March 15th, 2022, 12:10 pm
Hi ryceman.
It’s relevance from my point was that you can do this with the first flush of growth from a seedling. Also do you understand what he means by twice cut?
Squiz
I’m wondering if there is any benefit in striking summer candles using his methods?
I guess it is relevant in that it is essentially taking a pine cutting and propagating. It's just that you need to take the cutting from a seedling under this technique ... which means you need seed to begin with ... which is really hard to get ... which is why the option to develop new trees through the candles feels like a good area to look into ... and so the circle goes!
In terms of the "cutting twice" he is quite vague from what I've found on how this is done. I don't have a definitive answer, but I remember reading something from him about stem cutting (one cut), growing out (you hopefully get somewhere from 3-8 roots) then stem cut again (cut twice) above those new roots. He says the result is the plant goes into overdrive to produce more roots and you can double the number that come from the second cut site (6-16 roots). I think the time frame between cuts was something like 4-6 weeks?
I'd have to look up where I found/read that, but I think if I had a stem cut pine with 4+ roots I'd be reluctant to go again and try and double my money (unless I had plenty of seedlings and seeds to play with) ... once again access to seed makes these decisions less critical.
Don't know if that helps you at all or not. He has a number of threads on the Bonsai Nut forum you may or may not have seen where he talks a bit about this stuff. I guess you have to remember he's running a business so he's not going to want to give everything away and lose his competitive advantage ... you need to read between the lines a little I think.
EDIT: I had a quick look and found this link below which I think is somewhat helpful.
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/timin ... ngs.32362/
It appears twice cut meNs exactly that. It says he even does 3 or 4 cuts if it needs it. Hahaha I’d be happy if I got 4 roots first time around. That’s also not meant to sound crass.
Re: A discussion on propagating Japanese Black Pines from candles
Posted: March 20th, 2022, 6:51 pm
by squizzy
I’m going to go slightly off topic again but for all those struggling to get seed I have found it a very easy species to air layer.
Squizzy
Re: A discussion on propagating Japanese Black Pines from candles
Posted: July 5th, 2022, 11:03 am
by SuperBonSaiyan
squizzy wrote: ↑March 20th, 2022, 6:51 pm
I’m going to go slightly off topic again but for all those struggling to get seed I have found it a very easy species to air layer.
Squizzy
Would you mind sharing your air layering technique for JBP's? I have one that may need pruning soon, but if I can air layer then all the better.
Specific questions:
- Do you use sphagnum moss, plastic bag and zip ties / wire?
- How long do you leave the bag on for before sufficient roots develop?
- In which season do you start the air layering process?
- How much rooting hormone? (2 layers, 3 layers?)
Any other tips would be appreciated. Thanks!
Re: A discussion on propagating Japanese Black Pines from candles
Posted: July 5th, 2022, 7:59 pm
by thoglette
SuperBonSaiyan wrote: ↑July 5th, 2022, 11:03 am
Any other tips would be appreciated. Thanks!
Likewise!
No idea myself but I'm going to give it a go (JBP stock being rare and expensive hereabouts).
First hit in my favourite search engine is this one
Japanese black pine air layering
o-yaku.com (shay cohen) Sep 19, 2021. Note that this is northern hemisphere.
Then there's a whole pile of stuff on
on new air-layering method for Japanese black pine. at muranakabonsainursery from 2009 & 2010
There's also this old thread
Japanese Black pine Air layer
Re: A discussion on propagating Japanese Black Pines from candles
Posted: July 5th, 2022, 8:20 pm
by SuperBonSaiyan
I've seen some YouTube videos demonstrating success with air-layering JBP.
They seemed to agree with the timeline in the other post - around 1 year for sufficient roots to appear. That's a long time to have plastic bags hanging off my bonsai, but I think it'll be worth it to have another few JBP to play with.
Re: A discussion on propagating Japanese Black Pines from candles
Posted: July 9th, 2022, 10:08 am
by squizzy
SuperBonSaiyan wrote: ↑July 5th, 2022, 11:03 am
[quote=squizzy post_id=293323 time=<a href="tel:1647766298">1647766298</a> user_id=2556]
I’m going to go slightly off topic again but for all those struggling to get seed I have found it a very easy species to air layer.
Squizzy
Would you mind sharing your air layering technique for JBP's? I have one that may need pruning soon, but if I can air layer then all the better.
Specific questions:
- Do you use sphagnum moss, plastic bag and zip ties / wire?
- How long do you leave the bag on for before sufficient roots develop?
- In which season do you start the air layering process?
- How much rooting hormone? (2 layers, 3 layers?)
Any other tips would be appreciated. Thanks!
[/quote]
You’ll get far better advice from others on here than me. I’m not known for executing things methodically.
I cut a hole in the bottom of a 100mm squat pot and put a slice up the side. I place that around the deeply ring barked section of the tree that I’m layering( a tip is to cut deeper than you think up to 1/3 the thickness of the trunk)
I paint the cut with clonex
I place said pot around the scar and zip tie pot back together and in place. and tightly pack with sphagnum moss
I put a layer of zeolite( heavy pebble) as a top layer
I water pot regularly with other bonsai.
I do this in the growing season September to march.
When I see plenty of healthy thick white roots protruding from the base of the pot I cut it off
Rough simple and disgustingly lazy.
Squizzy
Re: A discussion on propagating Japanese Black Pines from candles
Posted: July 9th, 2022, 10:10 pm
by SuperBonSaiyan
I place said pot around the scar and zip tie pot back together and in place. and tightly pack with sphagnum moss
I put a layer of zeolite( heavy pebble) as a top layer
I water pot regularly with other bonsai.
Interesting, I'll give this method a try. It sounds easier than wrapping plastic and keeping it airtight - just need to keep up with the watering which I can do.
Thanks for the tips!
Re: A discussion on propagating Japanese Black Pines from candles
Posted: February 12th, 2023, 3:37 pm
by Promethius
How did your candle-propagated JRPs go, Neil?
Two from my original post made it, putting out reasonable roots. One was uprooted by a curious visiting toddler, but the other is still going.
IMG_3176.jpeg
IMG_3175.jpeg
There was a long delay to any new foliage growth - it's only begun budding in the last week, but there are lots of buds, and quite low down.
IMG_3178.jpeg
Apart from the low budding, I can't see any great advantage to doing this again, relative to growing from seed (assuming seed is available). I should note that I'm in a townhouse with an absolute max of 7 hours' sun at the summer solstice (if I happen to be home and can move everything around) and substantially less than that through the rest of the year. Not the best situation for pine growing, reflected by my slow attempts to grow JBP from seed. I expect that root and foliage growth would go much faster with more sun.
Andy
Re: A discussion on propagating Japanese Black Pines from candles
Posted: February 13th, 2023, 5:54 pm
by shibui
How did your candle-propagated JRPs go, Neil?
I looked at them today. Some roots showing at the bottom of the pot so at least 1 has produced roots. 5 cuttings still looking healthy at the tops.
I'll try to find time to pot them up and see how many have roots.
Re: A discussion on propagating Japanese Black Pines from candles
Posted: February 26th, 2023, 7:51 pm
by shibui
Just a single red pine candle cutting with roots this summer.
CH260866.JPG
Another 8 still had green needles and healthy looking buds but no real callus at the base.