Hi All,
I left one of my pines to basically grow unchecked (other then general cleanup needle pulling / cutting really long shoots before spring) after a repot the previous year.
It's come to the point to slow down the growth before it gets more leggy.
It has an abundance of long summer candles when it the best time to cut these back or in half? I would have assumed they would have opened by now.
It will need some work in balancing it out as lower branches have shorter candles , apex longer etc.
Thoughts / suggestions would be good!
Cutting long summer candles
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Cutting long summer candles
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Re: Cutting long summer candles
You have not given quite enough info to be able to give a meaningful reply.
What stage are you up to with this pine? Is it still growing and developing? Is it in final ramification or is it a well established mature pine in maintenance phase?
A pic of the upper candles does not really tell me anything about where the tree is up to.
I'm assuming the unopened candles are a second flush of growth since the spring shoots opened in December? The needles below the candles look really long so I'm assuming those were the spring growth.
There's a number of options depending on what stage the tree is up to, what you want to achieve and how strong individual branches are.
I'd like to see more photos and hear more about what your plans are before offering direct advice.
What stage are you up to with this pine? Is it still growing and developing? Is it in final ramification or is it a well established mature pine in maintenance phase?
A pic of the upper candles does not really tell me anything about where the tree is up to.
I'm assuming the unopened candles are a second flush of growth since the spring shoots opened in December? The needles below the candles look really long so I'm assuming those were the spring growth.
There's a number of options depending on what stage the tree is up to, what you want to achieve and how strong individual branches are.
I'd like to see more photos and hear more about what your plans are before offering direct advice.
http://shibuibonsai.com.au/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- Grant Bowie
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Re: Cutting long summer candles
Or just cut out the candle sticks and it will form new buds which will elongate in spring as normal new growth.
But Shibui is right. What do you plan for tree etc and if your ready to shape it.
Grant
But Shibui is right. What do you plan for tree etc and if your ready to shape it.
Grant
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Re: Cutting long summer candles
Hi,
Thanks for the replies, your right not really much information to go off.
Id say its now at the slow the growth down ramification phase. Trunk size + main branches would be set.
oct 2020 -> major repot from big grow bag to smaller grow
pot
April 2021 -> cut major summer candles as they were getting too long, general clean up
aug 2021 -> reduced to 2 buds
2021 - > now ive let it grow and last week just cleaned out all old dead needles / tidy up
https://youtube.com/shorts/TqkD4esUxxI?feature=share
Here is a small clip i made of it might be more helpful vs static photos!
Thanks for the replies, your right not really much information to go off.
Id say its now at the slow the growth down ramification phase. Trunk size + main branches would be set.
oct 2020 -> major repot from big grow bag to smaller grow
pot
April 2021 -> cut major summer candles as they were getting too long, general clean up
aug 2021 -> reduced to 2 buds
2021 - > now ive let it grow and last week just cleaned out all old dead needles / tidy up
https://youtube.com/shorts/TqkD4esUxxI?feature=share
Here is a small clip i made of it might be more helpful vs static photos!
- treeman
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Re: Cutting long summer candles
Cut off all the new seasons growth at the base, then thin excess branches and shoots to balance them with the weakest branch that you will definitely keep. This might mean cutting off entire branches.
As Grant says it will slowly form buds for nest spring over the next few months.
You can also do some preliminary wiring here and there but no detailed wiring at this stage.
As Grant says it will slowly form buds for nest spring over the next few months.
You can also do some preliminary wiring here and there but no detailed wiring at this stage.
Mike
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Re: Cutting long summer candles
Perth is warmer than here in the hills. I guess Grant's experience in Sydney and Treeman's warmer Melbourne bay side locations would be much closer so they'll have a good idea of what responses to expect from the tree pruned at this time of year.
I think at this stage of growth there's a couple of ways you could go.
Decandle now but also reduce remaining needles to make every shoot equal for needles. Decandling those summer candles will still leave the spring shoots on the tree. Generally leave around 6-8 pairs of needles on each shoot. Needle reduction slows growth for the coming year and also equalises vigour so the lower branches are the same strength as upper branches. Obviously the upper branches are currently far stronger than lower ones. It often takes a few years to change that dominance so persist for a few years.
Follow that up with a harder prune next summer. Instead of decandling in December, cut all long shoots back to the lowest healthy needles which should be 2 year by then. Note that's not orthodox JBP pruning methods but you have not yet done a summer decandle and those branches are getting too long already. Need to cut back as much as possible then start on a proper management program. Summer prune should stimulate new shoots from the remaining needles. Those shoots will be the equivalent of growth after summer decandling so will be the first stage of proper JBP maintenance program.
Alternative would be to do that hard prune now. Don't just cut the candles. Cut back as far as you dare to the older 2020 needles or to smaller side branches. Make sure needles are balanced as above - 6-8 pairs on each shoot, maybe a few more left on weaker shoots. Again, new buds should grow from the remaining needles and will lengthen and open in spring but they are likely to be quite strong again. In December cut off all candles right at the base of new growth. That's the first stage of decandling for the JBP maintenance program.
The photo above only shows the tips of some upper shoots. If you can post some photos of entire branches or shoots someone can draw some cut lines which will probably be so much better than words to describe.
I think at this stage of growth there's a couple of ways you could go.
Decandle now but also reduce remaining needles to make every shoot equal for needles. Decandling those summer candles will still leave the spring shoots on the tree. Generally leave around 6-8 pairs of needles on each shoot. Needle reduction slows growth for the coming year and also equalises vigour so the lower branches are the same strength as upper branches. Obviously the upper branches are currently far stronger than lower ones. It often takes a few years to change that dominance so persist for a few years.
Follow that up with a harder prune next summer. Instead of decandling in December, cut all long shoots back to the lowest healthy needles which should be 2 year by then. Note that's not orthodox JBP pruning methods but you have not yet done a summer decandle and those branches are getting too long already. Need to cut back as much as possible then start on a proper management program. Summer prune should stimulate new shoots from the remaining needles. Those shoots will be the equivalent of growth after summer decandling so will be the first stage of proper JBP maintenance program.
Alternative would be to do that hard prune now. Don't just cut the candles. Cut back as far as you dare to the older 2020 needles or to smaller side branches. Make sure needles are balanced as above - 6-8 pairs on each shoot, maybe a few more left on weaker shoots. Again, new buds should grow from the remaining needles and will lengthen and open in spring but they are likely to be quite strong again. In December cut off all candles right at the base of new growth. That's the first stage of decandling for the JBP maintenance program.
The photo above only shows the tips of some upper shoots. If you can post some photos of entire branches or shoots someone can draw some cut lines which will probably be so much better than words to describe.
http://shibuibonsai.com.au/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Cutting long summer candles
Hi,
Firstly thanks for the replies.
I've put some additional photos that who the tree as a whole
This is a close up marking growth pattern.
So basically there is 2 options?
1. Remove summer candles + reduce needles on spring growth to 6-8 pairs as per normal
2. Remove summer candles + Spring Needles, leaving last years needles only reduce to 6-8 pairs
The question is which is safer at this time of the year and which will result in setting the tree up better for the coming years?
@treeman you mean all the way back to 2020 needles?
Firstly thanks for the replies.
I've put some additional photos that who the tree as a whole
This is a close up marking growth pattern.
So basically there is 2 options?
1. Remove summer candles + reduce needles on spring growth to 6-8 pairs as per normal
2. Remove summer candles + Spring Needles, leaving last years needles only reduce to 6-8 pairs
The question is which is safer at this time of the year and which will result in setting the tree up better for the coming years?
@treeman you mean all the way back to 2020 needles?
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Re: Cutting long summer candles
Both options are safe. The difference is more about what the branches look now like and what you want to achieve.
After a year of unrestrained growth many shoots will be long with few side shoots. That may look OK now while they have green needles but in a couple of years those needles will be gone leaving bare branches with side branches only at the nodes. Look carefully and decide if there will be enough ramification if the long, current growth is left as is. Remember side branches grow from nodes or when we chop back to older needles to force new buds. Occasionally black pines will bud on recently bare branches but I've found that's unreliable and unpredictable where pruning back to needles is more certain.
Note that I don't think that option 1 :
Normal pine maintenance pruning would have removed all of spring shoots and reduced needles of the previous year's growth. Option 1 still leaves us with any long spring shoots and the associated bare 'necks' which will invariably leave open areas in ramification in years to come. The confusion likely from the second flush of summer candles from the tips of existing spring candles.
Normal pine maintenance pruning would have removed spring growth entirely and second flush would be direct from the end of previous years shoots - very different situation from what you currently have on this tree due to missing early summer decandling/pruning.
After a year of unrestrained growth many shoots will be long with few side shoots. That may look OK now while they have green needles but in a couple of years those needles will be gone leaving bare branches with side branches only at the nodes. Look carefully and decide if there will be enough ramification if the long, current growth is left as is. Remember side branches grow from nodes or when we chop back to older needles to force new buds. Occasionally black pines will bud on recently bare branches but I've found that's unreliable and unpredictable where pruning back to needles is more certain.
Note that I don't think that option 1 :
is actually as normal.1. Remove summer candles + reduce needles on spring growth to 6-8 pairs as per normal
Normal pine maintenance pruning would have removed all of spring shoots and reduced needles of the previous year's growth. Option 1 still leaves us with any long spring shoots and the associated bare 'necks' which will invariably leave open areas in ramification in years to come. The confusion likely from the second flush of summer candles from the tips of existing spring candles.
Normal pine maintenance pruning would have removed spring growth entirely and second flush would be direct from the end of previous years shoots - very different situation from what you currently have on this tree due to missing early summer decandling/pruning.
http://shibuibonsai.com.au/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- treeman
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Re: Cutting long summer candles
Whatever it takes to balance the tree. So some areas will be cut hard, others hardly at all. As long as there are plenty of healthy needles remaining, you can't go wrong. You will have to thin the buds out in spring though.
Mike