JBP seedling cuttings next step.

[Mickeyjaytee]

Hey all,

I have these JBP seedlings which, I cut off the roots and then grew as cuttings and they’ve done well however, I’m at the next stage where I should repot into separate pots and need some advice. Is it ok to repot now and also, is it too late to decandle them and, can I do it both at the same time? I wanted smaller more shohin JBP so, I figured if I removed the current candle I’d have more branch options lower down for the future. I am worried because it looks like perhaps they are already having a second flush.

Also if I do snip them, it should be the length of the newest growth correct? I’ve attached some pictures.

On one of the photos I’ve put a line where I think I should cut and, also an arrow showing new candles coming hence why I’m a little lost on what to do.

Any pointers would be appreciated.

Cheers

[shibui]

No problem repotting young pines any time of year. I have seedlings in a seed tray and I'll continue to pot up right through this summer and next year. I'll even root prune most of them quite hard as I do them.

No problem cutting the tops either. Pines can be chopped any time provided you leave some healthy green needles where new buds can form. There's not much growth below the red line but I often chop below the current new candles if required and still get good buds. No problem cutting higher if you want. Anywhere that leaves healthy needles is OK for pines.

Repot and prune can be done at the same time with young plants. The section you've marked for removal already has paired needles but is probably still juvenile enough to get a good % of strike if you want to try the cutoffs as cuttings.

Having said all that, you don't really need to cut yet. The needles live for 3 years so it is Ok to allow growth for 2 years then chop right back to the lowest healthy needles and still get great response.

[Mickeyjaytee]

Thanks Neil, i appreciate your reply. Can i ask what would you do? I haven't ever grown JBP from seeds let alone cut off the roots, striked and then gone from there.

All the info I've seen/read says to chop the second round of growth and go from there but, I won’t take that as gospel. Interested to see what you think.

Cheers mate

[Ryceman3]

Hey all,

I have these JBP seedlings which, I cut off the roots and then grew as cuttings and they’ve done well however, I’m at the next stage where I should repot into separate pots and need some advice.

So you stem cut them??

When did you do this, and if you did why would you not put them in individual pots at that time? It’s part of the same process!
They look healthy enough, but the point of stem cutting is to help control root growth and develop it for each tree, so not planting them individually at that stage seems a bit counter productive.
Now you have stem cut pines (I think) in communal pots that make it pretty hard to keep an eye on roots for each tree, even though you went to the effort of stem cutting to develop them? I could be misinterpreting, so apologies if I have read this wrong.

[shibui]

There are almost always a number of different paths or methods you can follow to achieve similar results so one size should not fit every situation and you may be just as successful trying a slightly different method.
BTW, congrats on having success with seedling cuttings. It isn't actually all that difficult but the first few times can cause quite a bit of anxiety.

So you stem cut them??

let alone cut off the roots, striked and then gone from there.

Seems pretty clear these have been stem cut, ie seedling cuttings. Just a bit unclear what steps since then.

They look healthy enough, but the point of stem cutting is to help control root growth and develop it for each tree, so not planting them individually at that stage seems a bit counter productive.

When I was doing seedling cuttings I would also pop them back into community pots just as I do for all other cuttings because, as cuttings, they needed humidity (misting) and I don't have enough room for lots of individual pots in the misting bed. I'd then transfer them to individual pots as the roots developed. Unclear if these are in the pots they were put in to start roots or have been moved on since and the community pots are just to save space. Also not clear if they are in propagating mix or some sort of potting mix to grow on.
Getting good roots is a priority so having some planted close to the edge of the pots will not be helping lateral root development. Agree that potting on so they can develop better roots will be a priority. Potting on into individual pots will also give the chance to prune and correct any root issues that may have developed. I would be happy to repot and root trim these small seedlings now but maybe do a few as a trial to see that it works in your area under your conditions at this time.
Root development is a flexible process so that could still be done next spring if that's more comfortable. The roots will not have grown past the point of either straightening or trimming to straighten/redirect in that time.

Lopping the tops to develop low branches can be done any time up until the lower needles die off which is usually 2-3 years so there's still plenty of time to get to that too.

Being young plants, you can probably get away with lopping the tops (decandling) as well as transplant and root prune. I've done that with seedlings. They survive well but they do seem to take longer to recover from transplant without the growing tips.

I would probably opt for a trial - but that's just because I like to find out what happens for myself. Transplant some without chopping the tops. Chop the tops of some then transplant later when the new shoots are growing. And maybe try a few doing both at once. I'm reasonably confident the results will be similar in each case.
You may be an all in and go for broke kind of person and just go for one method.

[Mickeyjaytee]

Thanks again for the replies.

R3, I put them in the one pot due to inexperience. I didn’t even think of it. I guess I had this notion I would probably lose them so I just placed them together Yes they were stem cut. I didn’t know the term

Neil, thanks for the input. I’ll do a trial and keep updating the post. The soil I used was a very fine akadama/pumice and lava rock mix. I did this as to last time I tried with a Japanese box it came out with such fine even spread lovely roots. I’ve never seen this before and was really happy with the result. That said, different species Inexperience too is also why I chose this mix. I did do these in autumn so with winter coming I thought a free draining mix would be good due to the wet winters here in Perth. I’ve lost a few JBP due to getting to wet even using a good draining soil mix before.

With that said, if I repot should I avoid that mix and use something else? It’s the smallest size you can get. 1-3mm I’m pretty sure it says on the bag.

I’ll do a trial! I’m always interested myself to see what works

Thanks a tonne lads

EDIT: I have some radiata that were stem cut also in a communal pot. I hear radiata has a much more sensitive root system than JBP so, should I repot and be a bit more careful? They’re special radiata pines from offspring of the original pines on my old family farm that are no longer with us (one died due to bush fire and 1 just died, possibly from age). They were both definitely over 100 year old. I’ve never seen a radiata come even close to the thickness of those old pines. Bloody magnificent they were. They actually started my love of bonsai. If you went all the way up the back paddock and looked back at them on the horizon, they looked like giant bonsai growing there

[Ryceman3]

It's all good, you gotta start somewhere and I am happy to see somebody growing JBP from seed, and stem cutting too. I think it's a great technique for creating bonsai, particularly shohin, so from me.
I was assuming that this one pot of seedlings is the total you have rather than a snapshot of a bigger volume, so potting these into their own individual pots at stem cutting would be my preference with smaller numbers. If you do have quite a few more, then trialling different techniques is a good idea to gauge how they react, but you really need to do a dozen or so of each variation at least to really be able to tell what works/doesn't work. Otherwise, the sample size is too small and so you can't get an overall picture that is meaningful.
If you only have the 6 or so, I would be looking to transplant into their own pots now. You can cut back a bit on stronger roots at this time, but hopefully if the stem cutting worked as it should you'll have multiple roots from the base with roughly even vigour. No need to get crazy with cutting them back though. You can put them in a regular bonsai mix, whatever free draining one you are comfortable with at this point. They have established roots so don't need a special mix of their own. Don't overpot them into containers that are too big thinking this gives them room to grow, something around 4" is fine right now, and will help avoid the mix staying wet for an extended time frame. I wouldn't be cutting the tops off unless you are desperate for more and want to plant out the tops as cuttings to create 2 plants from the one seedling. The best way to minimise thickening in a seedling is to cut it down, and right now I think you need these to thicken up. You have buds and/or needles down low that can provide future buds should you wish to cut in the future. I would focus on getting a good root foundation and letting the tops advance right now.
But you get to do whatever you like, they are your seedlings so have fun with them.

[Mickeyjaytee]

Awesome, thanks R3 I appreciate it. I have 4 more in separate pots as well as these. While I don’t have big numbers I did lose a few in an organic mix while lost none in the akadama/pumice/lava rock. My local bonsai guy swears by this mix due to our wet winters here in Perth. Unfortunately the single planted seedlings are off centre too as I was low on pots so put two in each pot

I have some 105mm x 105mm square pots which are 90mm high. Would that be ok or do I need smaller? I ran out of the others which have small seedlings in them.

I’ll try get stuck into them today and post some pics. Also do you know much about radiatas? I have 4 that I stem cut around the same time.

Cheers mate

EDIT: Oh, is it too early to start getting some movement in the trunks? Thank you!

[shibui]

Definitely worth taking good note of R3 posts and advice today.

Those pines are a bit bigger than I originally thought. Should be OK to go into the pots shown. Just take care they don't stay too wet before the roots spread through the pots.
Use whatever mix works for you in your area. If organics has caused problems use inorganics. If finer mix works better than larger particles then use it.

No need to be bending these yet. Just get them transplanted and growing well then maybe wire in winter but pines stay flexible for much longer than many other trees so you cab still wire and get good bends after a couple of years.

[TimIAm]

Bonsaify on youtube has an excellent set of videos covering each of the first three years of JBP from seed development. I found them very helpful to understand when to do the first pruning, when to begin candle cutting and how and when to do the initial wiring and he even covers a variety of initial style choices.

I prefer to have things shown visually and he demonstrates with trees that are the same age as he explains each technique.

[Mickeyjaytee]

Thanks Neil, I appreciate it as always. I repotted 4 of the single planted trees and they had nice white tips on the roots. A little balancing here and there and I decided to try a couple different soil mixes. Thanks for the info on bending too, I was unsure. I’ve been bending my native stock early but, they become so brittle and hard early so good to know about the pines.

Thanks also Tim. I’ll have a look tonight. I am subscribed to the channel. It’s really one of the better ones on YouTube. I’m definitely a visual man too cheers for the heads up

[Ryceman3]

Yep, the square pots are good, exactly what I use for first 12 months of growing (or so, after stem cutting)… you should be good with these until possibly further root work in winter.
I would treat Radiata in the same fashion to JBP at this stage, no direct experience though (total transparency), just a hunch on other trees I have worked on.