Mexican Weeping Pine Beginner questions

[Metafor]

Hi all, new to bonsai here. Been growing many things from seed in preparation for learning, but have never styled, trimmed or shaped anything before.

I grew a few Mexican Weeping Pines (P.Patula) from seed. Photo of one of them is included.

They are probably 1-2 years old now (mid 2022?), have had them sitting in bonsai pots for most of the time (I know this was probably premature). I have them outside, in indirect sunlight near the fence and they are doing quite well (Canberra Aus), they used to be inside but have been outside since about spring last year (no outside winters yet).

Plants are around 40cm high at a guess.

Few questions hoping someone can assist me with:
- Is it too early to start training?
- Should I be chopping those candles or just letting them go wild for a while? (I know many people will say the classic, depends how tall you want it, well I don't know how tall I want it thus asking for advice).
- Do these single or double flush? I cannot find good information on this, nor when the best repotting/training times of year are for this species (probably climate-dependent, but these trees are uncommon it seems ?)
- I've seen folks say you usually shouldn't have more than 2 branches coming off a trunk in the same spot, in the photo included you can see there is a vertical candle and 4 or 5 other branching candles out from its base, should I cut some out at some point, if so, which and when?
- When styling this species what kind of shape would be best? Considering the long weeping needles.

I know that is a lot of questions, and most are probably basic bonsai questions, but given it is a less talked about species I'm a lot more paranoid about doing the wrong thing and not having clear instructions to follow.

Hoping some nice folks can spend the time and assist a newbie. Thanks

[Promethius]

Welcome to the forum!

I have no experience with this type of pine, I'm afraid, so the best I offer is a few general suggestions - hopefully this will bump your thread and others can chip in. Canberra has a thriving bonsai scene and a local club might be a good resource.

Your plans for the tree will influence how you treat it at the moment. If you're happy with how it looks now, then you can keep it in the current pot. Cutting it back occasionally will keep it looking pretty similar. You mention partial sun exposure - pines prefer full sun. Make sure you increase watering if you move to a sunnier spot.

If you're trying to take it further, I suggest letting it grow more. I expect that P. patula would look better as a larger bonsai due to the needle size. The small pot will restrict growth, and cutting candles as you've mentioned will also restrict growth, therefore trunk girth. I'm not sure whether candle cutting is a technique used for this type of pine. I'm also not sure from the photo whether you're using a potting mix or garden dirt. An appropriate potting substrate will help plant health and promote better root health, thus growth. Finally, there is little taper or movement in the trunk. Taper gives an illusion of age and movement adds visual interest.

If this were my tree, I would repot it into a larger pot next spring, and would change the planting angle at least slightly, to add interest to the lower trunk.
With pines, we often use sacrifice branches - branches allowed to grow long, to thicken the trunk. I would aim to eventually cut back to one of the small branches low on the trunk - this will add both movement and taper, giving you a better tree, but will add years to your project. Make sure the low branches get lots of sun to stop them dying back in the interim.
Reducing the number of branches stemming from one point on a trunk prevents swelling at that point ('reverse taper'), but given that they're part of the sacrifice branch, I wouldn't worry about them.

Andy

[Ryceman3]

Hi Metafor and welcome.
I have tried to succinctly answer some of your Q's (see the blue text in your quoted post below) ... I have a bit of pine experience but like Promethius, not with Mexican weeping pine, and not in the Canberra region. People with knowledge of one (or preferably both) of those points might have more specific info that will give you a better guide.
Nice work growing your own stock from seed, it's a rewarding thing to do.
Hope the below helps somewhat.

Few questions hoping someone can assist me with:
- Is it too early to start training? No, these are definitely big enough and healthy enough to get your hands dirty.
- Should I be chopping those candles or just letting them go wild for a while? (I know many people will say the classic, depends how tall you want it, well I don't know how tall I want it thus asking for advice). What I do know about these is they have a weeping habit (funnily enough given the name) and I think I recall reduction in needles is very difficult, so with that in mind I would consider growing a bigger size tree to keep the foliage more proportional. With that in mind, your focus should be on growing. That would mean giving the roots room to expand/develop so the top can do the same. A bonsai pot is holding you back on that front. I would look to put this in the ground or a bigger grow pot (not HUGE if you go the pot option ... but with room for the tree to develop unrestricted). Can you do this now?? I probably would. The tree is healthy and you aren't looking to cut the roots back, just transfer them to a bigger space so if you're careful not to damage them it should be fine. If you worry a lot (and people in Canberra chime in to let you know that would be 'tree suicide' then hold off until maybe early/mid autumn.
- Do these single or double flush? I cannot find good information on this, nor when the best repotting/training times of year are for this species (probably climate-dependent, but these trees are uncommon it seems ?) Sorry, not really sure... either way, cutting back to 2's to avoid inverse taper is applicable to all pines regardless of their "flush" count. Looking at your image it appears to look like they are single flush maybe (but I'm guessing)?? Traditional repotting (with root reduction etc.) is done around the beginning of spring for pines, I doubt this species would be any different.
- I've seen folks say you usually shouldn't have more than 2 branches coming off a trunk in the same spot, in the photo included you can see there is a vertical candle and 4 or 5 other branching candles out from its base, should I cut some out at some point, if so, which and when? See above
- When styling this species what kind of shape would be best? Considering the long weeping needles. Bigger (as alluded to above) and probably with a branch structure that best showcases the weeping habit. I'd say probably not cascade/semi cascade. Upright branching that allows the needles to weep off them would be my first thought.

I know that is a lot of questions, and most are probably basic bonsai questions, but given it is a less talked about species I'm a lot more paranoid about doing the wrong thing and not having clear instructions to follow.

Hoping some nice folks can spend the time and assist a newbie. Thanks

[Metafor]

I would aim to eventually cut back to one of the small branches low on the trunk - this will add both movement and taper, giving you a better tree, but will add years to your project.

Ahh this is such a terrifying concept haha, at least I have a few of them to practice on.

Thanks for the advice all , its very helpful to have an idea and at least some what get that confirmed by others, helps to gain confidence.

Much appreciated!

Might load up some photos of the others I have.

[Promethius]

Those are some great pointers from R3 - I would go with his advice over my own, as his experience is much greater.

Definitely load up any other pictures! Progression threads are great, and particularly valuable when you’re growing an unusual species - helps as a future reference for everyone.

If you haven’t found it yet, have a read through ‘the pine project’ - Ryceman3 has an incredible seed-to-prizewinning black pine thread that might give you some additional inspiration. https://www.ausbonsai.com.au/forum/view ... aef52f0b62

[GavinG]

Maybe join the Canberra Bonsai Society, do their Bonsai Basics course, bring things in to the Advice Table, chat with folk who talk about their trees at Show and Tell - it makes things a bit easier. We have the Australian Plants as Bonsai show on next weekend at the Botanic Gardens in the Crosbie Morrison building - drop in, make yourself known!

See you there,

Gavin

[Metafor]

Oh thanks Gavin!

I'll keep that in mind! Will see if I can pop by if my third baby doesn't decide to arrive at the same time .