JBP Healthy enough to start work?

[Bretts]

I got this JBP in a group deal a couple of years ago. It was in a declined state and when I got it home I realised why.

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The owner had purchased the tree from Ray Nesci and then with no work plonked the root ball into a bigger pot with potting mix(to lengthen the roots for root over rock ). It was drowning. From memory this was around summer so I scrapped the soil away as best I could back to the original root ball and soil of Ray nesci. Then put it into a smaller terracotta pot. You can see that it had lost some branches and I was expecting to lose some more but it slowly recovered.
This spring I did a 1/3 or maybe it was closer to 1/2 soil change with akadama, crushed terracotta mix.

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I haven't grown much JBP so at first I thought the tree was going bonkers with a heap of buds but they ended up being male cones I think which was a little disappointing.
Not sure if I should have rubbed them off to conserve energy?
The tree has continued to grow well but I am not sure if it is ready to be worked on?
It is on it's second growth of the year while other JBP are on their third. The strongest growth has 4 buds and the weakest have one bud. Couple with 4 buds, couple with 3 buds, few with 2 buds and a few with one bud. Some needles seem to droop a bit but they are very long so this tells me the growth is strong. I put my healthiest JBP next to it and I am surprised to see there is no colour difference. Maybe the tree is ready for some work?

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I have not removed any dead branches yet so I can remember what was lost.

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There are a couple of branches that have not revoverd from dead buds but have budded out further back on the branch.

[Bretts]

I always thought that Ray must have bought these JBP in at some stage as I did not think he would leave them with circling roots but now I wonder if this was intentional as they will fuse and should leave a pleasing root base

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Now that might scare some people from commenting
The way the bark is separating makes me think there is good growth in the trunk also!

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[kcpoole]

Nice recovery Brett.
Do you have any plans / direction for it yet? as it ceertainly looks healthy enough to start creating that masterpiece

Ken

[Bretts]

Thanks KC. I am starting to think I am so used to it being weak that it is hard to see it as a healthy tree I think another year would do it good but then I might have more work ahead of me raining the growth back in. All I know about Pines is they are funny buggers
It was one of my considerations for the Literati contest but I figured it wasn't healthy enough to put it through the rigors of that. I guess it could be more of an informal upright. I am sure there is a tree in their but after looking at it for a couple of years I am still not sure.
Once I start work removing dead and weak branches maybe something will come to me. Might make a good workshop tree.
Any ideas on styling and or where to start with horticultural technique from here would be appreciated.

I was thinking I could work the top now(when time is right ) giving the roots a rest and repot the other half of the root ball in two years?

[Andrew_Davies]

Thats a good question about the male cones, does anybody have any ideas? I am always unsure myself.

[Bretts]

I have been scratching my head trying to work out what to do with this pine. I was thinking some what literati. I came across this picture and thought it could be a good idea for this pine.
Anyone agree? My top jin would be a bit lower down I think would that spoil it?

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[alpineart]

Hi Bretts , i like the look of that pic , a JBP like that will definately look the goods .Very nice movement in that trunk, keen to see it progress .Cheers Alpine

[Grant Bowie]

The male flower (pollen) will not be a problem when you have a tree in maintenance mode as a bonsai because, in my opinion, you should completely remove this years buds in early spring as they start to elongate. This removes the male flower with the buds.

As nursery stock I never found it to be a problem.

The long hanging needles are two years old and can be removed.

The tree looks healthy enough and you could do some training. Cut out long unneeded growth and then assess for wiring/shaping.Then in spring bud remove (or candle snap if you want some elongation at that point) .

Shaping up to you.

Grant

[Bretts]

Thanks Guys!
I might just be imagining it but It's looking a little undernourished now the cold has set in. I will see how it looks in spring before I decide how much to do this year. I thought JBP could take any cold we have here but they don't seem to be enjoying it this year. Just gave hem all a spray of Kocide blue. Only the odd needle that looks collard mid section but figure I would rather be safe and treat them all.
I have cut off the older needles to open it up but it was fiarly sparse anyway so not sure if it really needed it.

I am liking this idea. I have option of two jins. I wanted to see how it would look in the new angle so here is a quick vert with some wood left to make jins.

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[kvan64]

I love the taper at the base. Intentionally or not, the root wrapping has done good to the tree. I wanted to say: "chop after the lowest branch and make a good sohin" but then thought about the overall characters of the tree that would have been lost as the result of the chop. You seem to have a good plan with that virt. I know very little about JBPs but can see a lot of new growth and candles which suggest that it's must be healthy. I have a couple of JBP that have some dead needles that fell off and I think it's just how they replace leaves. I also heard that they don't back bud far in the branch and this happened to this tree. That must be a good sign for health.
Good luck with the progression.

[Bretts]

Although this pine looked great by the end of last season over Winter it seemed to be a little on the light side for foliage colour. I took it along to the tops weekend hoping to get some first hand lessons on technique from Clinton Nesci. Looking at the other JBP at the workshop it was evident the foliage should have been much greener.
After some discussion with Rod Marsh it was suggested this lack of colour may have been from a too fine soil mix but upon removal from the pot It was evident that it had a progressively coarser mix to the bottom of the pot. Clinton suggested it was from under watering. Another suggestion By Clinton was that it just needed repotting as the root growth was extensive . (Maybe the fine soil mix on top was deceptive when watering?) There was also discussion on the light colour of the bark witch may have been from residual water deposits? There was a lack of microzia witch indicated that I had been fertilising well but I had backed of the fertiliser on all trees at the end of last season so we never really nailed down why it was lacking in colour.
All this was put to one side and Clinton decided a tentative repot and a light structural styling was the way to go.
All this was after I had shown Clinton the two ideas I had in mind for the tree. The first Idea was as the picture above which I thought was a pretty simple idea for the tree which brought a gasp from Clinton. I had come up with a new idea since this and had shown it to a few others they gathered around as I put this idea to Clinton wondering what he thought the chances where of achieving such a great tree
It was some where between this

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and this

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Clinton was first taken a little aback but after some discussion he was very keen on the idea and stated that I had come up with some great ideas and he believed it was the best way forward for the tree. This was a huge compliment for me
Clinton wanted to use some larger branches but when I pushed the point he assured me that taking of those larger branches and starting agian with some smaller ones would be no concern for the health of the tree and would only mean two seasons growth to get back to the same size agian. My thought was it would probably take that long to get them to back bud anyway and this would give me better control on the final design and also limit the need for extensive wiring that the tree may not like in the current state of health.

So After a good tease of the roots(a little more on the older soil) and some fresh soil in a slightly bigger pot. It went straight back into full sun and has been getting plenty of fertiliser and I was happy to tell Clinton today all is going Fine

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[Dario]

Hi Bretts, how is this JBP coming along?
I hope that it is well.
I have a radiata (a young one) that was collected last yr...the older needles are dark green, but the new needles that developed a couple of months ago are a very very light green? It is watered well and fed well and shouldn't need repotting till Autumn or late winter next yr. All my other radiatas and even a couple collected from the same spot have lovely darker green needles normal for their species (obviously not as dark as JBP).
How is the colour of the foliage on your pine now?
I like the taper of this tree and was curious to read about the circular roots (a supposed big no, no!) fusing at the base...do you think this was an intentional design aspect?...the end result is fantastic!
Cheers, Dario.

[Bretts]

This one is going OK Dario but it is one of three that I can't seem to get the foliage green enough. It shows up worst during Winter. I guess that is because I back off on the fertiliser at that time. I could blame the peat that I added to the mix but one of them from memory doesn't have much if any peat and mostly akadama?
I am tempted to repot it again at the moment into a more free draining mix but am thinking I might be better just to manage it for this season.

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It probably looks healthy enough in the pic and is improving with the warmer weather and extra fert but if I put this against another JBP it will be quite evident that it is not as dark a green as it should be.
I have lots of JBP and most are a very healthy dark green.

[Dario]

Thanks for updating Bretts, I don't understand the difference in foliage colour either?(as I said, I also have this issue currently)...looks healthy though!
Are you trying the circular roots/fusing business on any of your other jbp's in development? I am going to give it a go as I like the result and it is giving me a lot of ideas.
Thanks, Dario.

[Bretts]

Can't say I am trying the fusing technique on purpose with any of my pines but it is good to remember that in certain circumstances circling roots will fuse.
Grant has a thread on here some where about using a cone shape to help this work. I will have a look for it later if you can't find it.
Also I have a deciduous tree on here some where that Don used the fusing technique to get a base swelling It is in one of the nebari threads I will look for it later.
Gota go at the moment