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Ficus salicifolia / nerifolia

Posted: January 28th, 2022, 2:40 pm
by KIRKY
As it’s ficus season, I have been looking into my ficus. My questions are salicifolia and nerifolia the same spieces?
I have a couple of each, I think I see a difference in the leaf the salicifolia seems to have a much finer/thinner longer leaf. Where as the nerifolia seems slightly broader. Or I could just be imagining a difference. Can anyone growing the two confirm, or are they just miss labeled?
According to Wikipedia they are different?? Happy for any insight on these.
Also does anyone have any ficus natalensis or Ficus burtt-davyi nanna cuttings they’d like to sell?
Cheers
Kirky

Re: Ficus salicifolia / nerifolia

Posted: January 30th, 2022, 7:17 am
by dansai
I can't give any definitive answers without a lot more research, but it would appear that in Bonsai circles, particularly American online articles, they appear to be the same, yet the description of F. salicifolia on wiki and other sources seems to describe a fig with different leaves but with the common name of Willow Leaf Fig. I have a few unlabelled plants that I would have attributed to "Willow Leaf Fig" that most closely resemble the description of F. nerifolia. A problem with the nursery industry is that plants aren't always labelled correctly due to varying reasons and common names can be very misleading. As F. salicifolia has a distribution through Africa and F. nerifolia through Asia they would not be the same species.

I have one plant I got as a bonsai started that looks like a root cutting, something that "Willow Leaf Figs" seem to do well. My guess is it is a form of F. nerifolia. I also have some larger plants that were sold as potted figs that have the same leaf shape ,but much longer, and have different bark, which is a brown colour with white lenticels like a "Tiger Bark Fig". Positively IDing figs can be fraught as there seems to be a fair amount of variability in certain characteristics. Fruit seems to be the most reliable but is rarely present on pot grown trees. Most plants grown for pot, or bonsai, culture would be cuttings from a few select varieties that may, or may not, have characteristics similar, or the same as, how the species is officially described.

This link has some good pictures of F. salicifolia leaves from Africa where it is a common Fig.

This one from a US garden shop has a photo of a fig with long skinny leaves and a common name of "Willow Leaf Fig" and labelled F. salicifolia

All resources I found on F. nerifolia had the thin leaves like here

Re: Ficus salicifolia / nerifolia

Posted: January 30th, 2022, 9:30 am
by KIRKY
Thanks Dansai for your research, :reading: I have a few that look like this one
https://www.wigertsbonsai.com/product/f ... sai-7-pot/ lots of very fine leaves.
And then a couple that look like your link above (All resources I found on F. nerifolia had the thin leaves)
None of them look like your first link Salicifolia Vahl
Still not sure if they are two different species or as you say, same species with differing variability and characteristics Seems it might be easier to just label them as Willow leaf fig but I like to call a spade a spade and a shovel a shovel. Overall I don’t suppose it really matters, still it would be nice to know.
Cheers
Kirky

Re: Ficus salicifolia / nerifolia

Posted: January 30th, 2022, 12:09 pm
by dansai
The link you posted say Ficus salicaria which seems to be a synonym. This link suggests there is even dispute over its identity, but does include a picture of a bonsai that looks like F. nerifolia. Maybe this is where the misapplied name comes from.

Some interesting botany;
  • Salici- translates to willow and -folia to leaf, so saricifolia = willow leaf
  • -aria translates to having a connection with or pertaining to, so salicaria = willow like
  • neri- refers to the genus Nerium, the oleander, so neriifolia = oleander- shaped leaf

Re: Ficus salicifolia / nerifolia

Posted: January 30th, 2022, 1:13 pm
by KIRKY
Well to my eye that settles it, as one lot are definitely willow like. And the other more like mini oleander.
So I’ll label them as such :tu: many thanks dansai
Cheers
Kirky

Re: Ficus salicifolia / nerifolia

Posted: March 31st, 2022, 10:47 am
by KIRKY
If anyone is interested, finally found the answer to which tree is which.

Ficus nerifolia has scientifically been published and re-named as Ficus salicaria by C. C. Berg in Brittonia, 2004. "A new species of Ficus (Moraceae) of uncertain provenance", Brittonia 56 (1) : 54-57. This is an official naming and as such is the only legitimate name in the scientific community (at least until it is re-named in the future to something else!)

Cheers
Kirky

Re: Ficus salicifolia / nerifolia

Posted: March 31st, 2022, 12:41 pm
by terryb
KIRKY wrote: March 31st, 2022, 10:47 am Ficus nerifolia has scientifically been published and re-named as Ficus salicaria by C. C. Berg in Brittonia, 2004. "A new species of Ficus (Moraceae) of uncertain provenance", Brittonia 56 (1) : 54-57. This is an official naming and as such is the only legitimate name in the scientific community (at least until it is re-named in the future to something else!)
Hi Kirky,

The publication you indicate has no mention of F. neriifolia nor did the author compare the plant they named F. salicaria to it, so one has not been renamed to the other.

"Plants of the world online" https://powo.science.kew.org/ has F. neriifolia as a synonym of Ficus salicifolia. So:
  1. F. salicaria and F. salicifolia are valid names but different to each other and
  2. Anything that was F. neriifolia should be called F. salicifolia
.

Re: Ficus salicifolia / nerifolia

Posted: March 31st, 2022, 1:40 pm
by dansai
It is also worth noting that plants sold/labeled as willow leaf fig are probably all grown from cuttings or root cuttings (one of a few figs that do grow readily from root cuttings). Therefore they are more akin to a cultivar than an actually species. It would be like describing "Little Ruby" as a new species as it has morphological differences to other Ficus rubiginosa. Although there would be 1000's if not 10's of thousands of "Little Ruby" plants out there, they would not constitute a species as there would be no stability in propagated material from seed to maintain those characteristics.

Re: Ficus salicifolia / nerifolia

Posted: September 8th, 2022, 1:24 am
by Rintar
Hay Kirky, interesting discussion. I have a large ficus Natalensis and regularly take cuttings over summer and propagate them. I give them to friends at about 2 years old as Christmas gifts for those that seem interested in bonsai. Never posted plant matter but would send for cost of postage that seem to have an

Re: Ficus salicifolia / nerifolia

Posted: September 8th, 2022, 3:25 pm
by KIRKY
pm sent

Cheers
Kirky

Re: Ficus salicifolia / nerifolia

Posted: October 9th, 2022, 1:50 pm
by TimIAm
Kew still has them as 3 different accepted species.

When looking at the synonyms sections, my understanding is that the synonym is only related to a particular publication, which can either be accepted or rejected.

So under F. Salicifolia when it lists Neriifolia as a Heterotypic Synonym it applies to the 1850 publication Ficus neriifolia A.Rich., Tent. Fl. Abyss. 2: 267 (1850), nom. illeg. the result being "nomen illegitimum, = illegitimate name". Which I assume means it was rejected on the ground of "nom. illeg.". Thus, it isn't a standing accepted synonym.

From Kew, all three are separate species, and not listed as valid synonyms of either (that is, they're not synonymous).

Ficus salicaria C.C.Berg - First published in Brittonia 56: 54 (2004)
Ficus salicifolia Vahl - First published in Symb. Bot. 1: 82 (1790)
Ficus neriifolia Sm. - First published in A.Rees, Cycl. 14: n.° 21 (1810)

The question of what we have in Australia is tricky because none of the above 3 are native to Australia (see https://profiles.ala.org.au/opus/foa/browse Genus:Ficus). So at some point one or more were introduced.

Even in the U.S there isn't universal agreement of exactly which species is used in bonsai circles. To quote Adamaskwhy, "Ficus salicaria (willow leaf ficus. And yes, I don’t care who you are, it is f. salicaria, not nerifolia, not salicifolia, not even subulata, as one prominent bonsai professional has taken to calling it)."

Note there's also a well known variety of the Willow Leaf, "89". Which you can read about here: https://adamaskwhy.com/2020/07/30/big-ficus-89/

Part of the post worth reading is this: "Back then he (Jim Smith) called the base species: Common name: willow leaf fig but the scientific name he used was either: Ficus nerifolia, or F. salicifolia. We have since learned that those names are for other, different species of ficus with vastly larger leaves and fruit. So, a ficus guy, a botanist, named C.C. Berg, after much research and comparisons to other species, concluded it was an unknown fig and called it Ficus salicaria, which is literally “willow like foliage”."

I think if you were really interested, you could pay to read through the C.C Berg paper. That paper might even contain some info of the history of the plant in the US.

Part of the issue with identifying ficus online from photos is due to the large number of photos of trees which have already been mislabeled. Sometimes searching for and looking at the herbarium sheets of genuine samples is a good way at ruling out one species.

Re: Ficus salicifolia / nerifolia

Posted: October 13th, 2022, 4:31 pm
by Rintar
A lot of good info and research there. I have also been told that hybridization between figs (specifically our native PJ and Morton) is super common I know this adds to issues in ID here. Along with seed variation over time etc.

Re: Ficus salicifolia / nerifolia

Posted: October 13th, 2022, 8:30 pm
by melbrackstone
Jerry Meislik has released his latest book on Ficus. "The world of ficus bonsai."

In that he states that the common willow leaf fig that most people use is F. salicaria. (Also incorrectly called F. salicifolia, F. nerifolia, F. regularis, F. irregularis and F. celebensis.) There is another Ficus with narrow leaves from South Africa, that's called F. salicifolia, but it is not the willow leaf fig of bonsai culture. The African F. salicifolia has a relatively narrow leaf, but the leaf is much larger than willow leaf, and the plant has different syconia.

Recommend the book, lots of excellent info.

Re: Ficus salicifolia / nerifolia

Posted: October 14th, 2022, 3:54 pm
by Rintar
I have the book interesting read.

I am thinking of trying some of the grafting this year late oct early November. Which reminds me what I was growing that cutting i sent you for Kirky Lmao its all good i have others but none as long. They will suffice for now.

Re: Ficus salicifolia / nerifolia

Posted: October 14th, 2022, 6:42 pm
by TimIAm
What are you planning on grafting? Something Ficus related?