how good are we

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tgward
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how good are we

Post by tgward »

some very impressive bonsai here--for all you ausbonsai ists in the know- I reckon there must be a few aus natives that are developed enough and have enough character to mix it with the established species ----how bout searching out these aus natives that have character and style and put them forward so they can be appreciated on the world stage - I don't reckon a good paperbark or callistemon or coastal tea tree would be secondary to a black or red pine p.s . a couple of glasses of red on a saturday evening can make one a little patriotic ,,,, nevertheless
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F70Cb-xPD9o
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Re: how good are we

Post by TimS »

I watched this a earlier today, and the thought crossed my mind, how much extra credence is given to a tree for being owned/ styled/ created by a famous name? Quite a number are credited to specific people, and logically it makes sense to acknowledge the creator, but does it increase the perceived quality of the tree by the viewer? If the tree was viewed without the name attached, would it still be held in such high regard? Clearly these are not average trees being passed off a great, it was just something that floated into my mind while watching.

Would any Australian native trees actually make such a list on merit? How long is the list is the first question. Are the judges actively looking to represent bonsai worldwide, and therefore feeling a responsibility to include an Australian native in the list whether or not it is actually of a comparable quality? What is the system of judging that whittles the list down? Does it need to be styled in a quote-un-quote 'traditional bonsai style' to qualify?

I'd actually feel like it was a sympathy vote to include an Aus native tree when you think of how many deeply significant trees of great historical importance there are around the world that didn't make the list. One that jumps to mind is the almost 400 year old JWP that survived the Hiroshima bomb and was gifted to the US as a gift of friendship between the two countries. I'l probably get flamed for this next comment i'm sure, but in my book that tree deserves to be ahead of any Australian native full stop on any list of great bonsai trees simply for the story that tree has to tell, irrespective of any design/style/nationalistic/ whatever considerations.

I'm sure the register of culturally important bonsai in Japan alone would knock pretty much anything we would have to offer well down the list. China would naturally have a rightful claim to be well up the list too.

Thats a long way of saying we might be wearing rose tinted glasses to entertain such a question. We are certainly moving into using our native species more effectively than we have before (well some are, i've no interest in growing them whatsoever) but i can't see us honestly being able to stand toe-to-toe with the great trees of the world at this stage.
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TimS
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Re: how good are we

Post by TimS »

edit: double post by accident
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how good are we

Post by MJL »

Hang on .... let me make some popcorn ... this should be a good show!
...........
The homogeneous nature of the canopies is interesting - as The Mandolorian might say: “This is the way.”

In this video, the ‘leggy’/upright forest on rock plantings of Hagedorn and Neil stand out as a breath of light and fresh air. So to some of the more upright pines .... one from Crespi took my fancy.

Perhaps that the positioning of our natives in such a group - is one of lightness - a breath of fresh air and difference ...

It’s impossible for me to know because I have not seen these trees up close .... such a list is subjective ... but while our trees may not have bonsai age -
surely we’d have a few that’d make that would sit well.

I am pretty sure - even in some that I have seen at the NBPCA and other native shows - there’s be a few that could hold there own or at least cause the viewer to utter words like:

“Sh!t a brick - what’s that” as they stroll past a juniper and check out a group of paperbark.

Or

“F’me, check that out! What is it ?...”

And before I get smacked for inferring a lack of respect in my ‘homogeneous’ - I am not meaning any disrespect- just noting a visual feel.

And as I sit in the couch with my coffee this fine morning - I stare at my reasonably average collection that has taken over my courtyard .... and I’m happy that there’s a heap of diversity in design - whether through my lack of skills or conscious want to experiment a bit.

PS - TG - I hope you enjoyed the red last night.
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Re: how good are we

Post by tgward »

yes --merit must be earned-- and if possible the best of our native species would need to be placed in front of the (noelanders :cry: )judges to be critiqued--and thereafter the international public .-- and of course with all that, I realise we have to learn to roll over before we can crawl :palm:
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Re: how good are we

Post by Watto »

The "best" is so subjective I don't think it is possible to quantify, but suffice to say that anyone could put up a list of the 6, 9 or 17 best in their opinion and it would carry as much weight.
Check this out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIuRnt2A2p8
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Re: how good are we

Post by Matt S »

I agree with MJL in that the two forests really caught my eye. The Olive is a good example of what we’ve covered elsewhere; it’s a very pretty tree but I’ve never seen an olive grow like that! It also illustrates to me that we shouldn’t fall into the trap of shaping our natives into traditional Japanese shapes, we need to invoke what we see and how we feel when we are in the bush.

While I haven’t seen Australian trees that have the precision and refinement of those pines and junipers, I don’t think that’s necessarily what our natives require. I have however, seen Australian native bonsai that have stopped me in my tracks and bought a tear to my eye and my jaw on the ground, and would hold their own in the international scene.

How we see trees is connected to our landscape and culture. Australian native bonsai done to reflect this would probably appeal more to Australians, just as Japanese bonsai are probably appreciated more by the Japanese who are steeped in their landscape, seasons and aesthetics that their bonsai reflect.

If we create native bonsai that really capture what Australians love about our native species in the wild, then international acclaim will follow.
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Re: how good are we

Post by TimS »

Maybe it boils down to, can anyone actually check their inherent preferences and cultural inclinations at the door and totally objectively rate trees on their merits? Answer: 99.9999% no. Even subconsciously most people would gravitate to what they like. It would take a very uncommon person to disassociate themselves from their judging to such a degree that they would equally evaluate a traditional styled tree and a modern art styled tree.

I messaged MJL earlier about the subject and said along the lines of 'even if i was standing in front of To-Ryu-No-Mai or Fujin i wouldn't find either as appealing as a equally high quality deciduous tree because that's what i prefer'. So i will always under-rate natives and exotic conifers even just subconsciously because i find them not as interesting compared to deciduous. That's not to say there are not natives or conifers i rate highly, in fact if we take it down a level from world class trees, i visited the Waverly club show last year i think it was, and my choice for best tree of the show was a very elegant and beautiful JRP. Balance of probability though, i will always be drawn to the deciduous.

I think Matt S has hit it on the head though. Grow our natives to reflect our natural world rather than the pre-ordained styles from overseas and the wider appreciation will follow.
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Re: how good are we

Post by Ryceman3 »

Anybody wanna do a countdown of the top 10 beers? :beer: :beer: :beer:
No... maybe top 10 prime ministers :lol: ... guess not, maybe top 10 movies, or novels?? :reading:
Whichever way you spin it, probably best to just appreciate what is put forth, and if you can’t then move on safe in the knowledge somebody else more than likely is. My opinion is worth no more than the next person... nor should it be.
In terms of natives... maybe something is out there worthy, if it is, it’s not in my collection and that’s all I’ve seen since March... :P Doesn’t mean I won’t persist and appreciate the work of those who do the same.
I know others are plugging away too. :tu:
Anyway... back to the beers - seriously... should we do a list? :shake:
:beer:
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Re: how good are we

Post by MJL »

I am up for a list of beers, perhaps another list of single malts .... perhaps we should head to the cafe and start a thread or two.


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Re: how good are we

Post by Starfox »

It's Coopers Pale Ale, a list is not needed. :tu:
:beer: :beer:
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TimS
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Re: how good are we

Post by TimS »

Gotta be Sapporo Classic, only available in Hokkaido and many were consumed during my trip there. I still have fond memories of that one.

Alternatively there is a little Japanese restaurant I went to in Albert Park back before lockdown that had Yebisu Premium which is a close second and something I can actually get here :tu:
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Re: how good are we

Post by Ryceman3 »

I need a beer to think about it ... :whistle:

Sorry for the thread hijack @tgward, that wasn't my intention. I was just trying to make the point that when a 'top 10'/countdown is put forward in any topic there will always be debate and conjecture about what wasn't included as much as what made the cut. Trying to make the perfect list in the correct order that appeases all who view it is an exercise in futility, but often entertaining nonetheless.

Now ... it's getting close to beer o'clock (it begins a little earlier for those in lock down :P )

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Re: how good are we

Post by tgward »

no sweat ryceman--- just thinking if there is such a thing as an "australian" style and we have some nice examples of our natives ,they may be able to hold their own at international level(if only in sub categories). But possibly made too difficult by our plant Quarantine-import laws
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Re: how good are we

Post by tgward »

It was beer,shiraz and port o'clock last night(ouch)----- so I'll lay off it for the next few days
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