Cat among the Shohin

[ozzy]

Oh and furthermore if someone wants to let me have it please don't be shy, I have noticed a retraction above but if you want to straighten me out I don't mind just PM me if its its that bad and not printable LOL , my hides thicker than a Rhinoceros and I actually love abuse

[TheNumber13]

As I have never claimed to have an actual bonsai, only collected stock for future training, and I acknowledged and was thankful for the piece of advice you gave on my olive; I shall assume that you were making a generalised statement not directed at me personally.

In my previous post I was referring only to people, of whom there are many on this site, who have little to no experience and come here willing to learn and take on advice; such as myself. Such people do exist, and coming onto this site to seek help is one of the main ways that such people will be able to learn enough to satisfy your standards. If you seek to exclude all inexperienced people, you won't get any new talents or future generations of Australian Bonsaiists.

Your choice. Group us all together as having no hope, or at least recognise that some people can, and want to, be helped in improving their abilites and stylings. That is the only point I was trying to make.

[Pup]

As we know Ozzy is less tolerant than some,but I do believe he has never personally attacked any one on a a thread.

I posted a thread here knowing that it might cause some fire and brimstone. My intention was clarification, as you have seen some pics I posted.

Now I know the boss might get a little P!!$~d with me here. I was the one that questioned his entry.
I will state my beliefs here. The pictures that have been posted in this thread were deemed unacceptable because the tree had had wire!.
Following that I deemed that any tree that had been put into a Bonsai pot had,had prior training.
That is how I see it.

Here are two trees now the big one has had no training other than the trunk chop, the branches that were cut were so it would go into the car. This one in my way is not acceptable, but in the bosses yes, mine because it is in a Bonsai pot.
The other, is the one trunk chopped 12 months ago and pictured here. Now it had wire prior to the trunk chop 12 months ago so it has been trained prior to 1st of September. If I trunk chop it now it has had training though.

As I said being Pedantic.

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[Andrew Legg]

I have given you advice on how to turn your pot plant rubbish into a real Bonsai in the true Japanese traditions but you haven't listened, instead you are trying to bastardize one thousand years of Bonsai tradition to suit your boring piece of crap plant, you are not interested in advice you are only interested in disgracing the true bonsai masters by claiming that you currently have a bonsai.[/quote]

Don't worry Ozzy, we love your crap too!

Just remember that 'bonsai' means different things to different people. Some people are here to achieve the absolute pinacle of what they can with their time, resources and artistic abillity. Others are here because they enjoy the process of training trees in pots and some of their stuff may become decent and others may remain ordinary till the tree finally cops it. Some of us have green fingers, some of us have the artistic ability of a slug and whilst that may limit us, it should not limit our interest and the joy we extract from the process. Then there are those who visit here because they have a passing interest and just want to get their tree to see their next birthday, or keep it alive until they lose interest. The most important thing you and the rest of us on this forum should remember is that we have no right to dictate to anyone else as to at which level they should practice this hobby. Finally. remember that that crappy tree that you dismissed and the owner you insulted may just be the next Kimura. We all have to start somewhere and we all start at the beginning. What did your first tree look like? What did Pup's first tree look like? I can tell you one thing, my first tree was a dog's breakfast!!! What did your second and third trees look like?

At the end of the day, you get rubbish art and you get superb art, but the artists enjoy creating it all the same. Pup seems to be a bit of a traditionalist in bonsai terms and knowledgeable in Japanese culture, so perhaps he can comment on whether your posts here are in the spirit of true Japanese tradition. I'll happily save him the trouble though!

[izzykay]

bonsai beef. thats pretty raw!

[Andrew Legg]

Pup,

I agree that your previously wired tree with all the trained bits cut off should be eligible, and I'd say the same for the other bloke who's tree was disallowed. I disagree that a pot constitutes training as what defines a pot? Does a similar size and shaped plastic box or plastic bag constitute training? We can contain roots using any growing vessel and what happens if I buy a tree from a nursery and it's in a black bag and is root bound etc. Same difference in my eyes unless I'm missing something. On this point I think you are splitting hairs and the level of analysis here is counter the spirit of the competition. When do we start to argue that watering and feeding regimes constitute training as they are also different to what a non-bonsai person may do.

Steven made the call on the previously wired and now cut off trees. Rightly or wrongly that call has been made and we need to move on. I'm sure Steven did not make the call based on whether he likes you or not. The rules are also there and clear to see - no previous training other than root work and chops. Perhaps an extra rule should have been added: All previous training must be removed prior to start date. That however opens a whole new can of worms as far as moderation is concerned. ("Was that branch wired or not Maybe I can just sneak this little one in cause it will make a big difference. . . you can't see it in the photo . . . .") It was not added, so the tree remains ineligible. Let's all get over it and enjoy the compo!

Cheers,

Andrew

[ozzy]

xxx

[LLK]

In my previous post I was referring only to people, of whom there are many on this site, who have little to no experience and come here willing to learn and take on advice; such as myself. Such people do exist, and coming onto this site to seek help is one of the main ways that such people will be able to learn enough to satisfy your standards. If you seek to exclude all inexperienced people, you won't get any new talents or future generations of Australian Bonsaiists.

(Pat)

Hi Pat,
Sixteen years ago I was one of those people, a rank beginner who looked for all the information she could get. Back in those days we had the forerunner of the forerunner of the... don't know how many, anyway it was a forerunner of the present Internet Bonsai Club. It functioned much as our forum here does, and I got a lot of help over the years. I won't forget the selfless helpers of the olden days, I can assure you! Among them were Michael Persiano, Herb Gustaffson, Colin Lewis, Craig... what's his name again... and other "greats". They weren't too proud, or too superior to give advice to a newbie.

The forerunner of the present IBC tried to have a separate section for beginners, where they could ask all the basic questions they had. It didn't work, because the boundary between "beginners" and "advanced" was ill defined, and many beginners didn't like having the tag of "newbie" applied to them. Also, the advice givers weren't particularly interested in the novices. So I'd never recommend a separate section for the latter.

Guys, we have a wonderful forum here thanks mainly to Steven, but also to his team of moderators and those who give their advice on the basis of extensive experience. It's a WONDERFUL FORUM AND IT'S F R E E !!! Is it so much to ask to give time to those who need it, of whatever standard they are???
If you have a gripe, PLEASE work it out discreetly with Steven or one of the mods, don't go and poison the atmosphere for everyone else.

To those who have entered the shohin competition: the clock is running, soon the most exciting part will start, i.e. all the work on all those different trees! Let's have a great time, all!

Lisa

[PeterH]

The umpire has the final say so why are we going down this path. Some of you guys need some rapid set in your diet.

Just Do IT and maybe everyone will learn something on the way no matter what skill level.

I know I will

Peter

[Andrew Legg]

Just reads like another post that says lets let our crappy pot plants that should be fed through a mulcher be classified up their with the bonsai thats been trained by bonsai masters for fifty or a hundred years, pffft wheel out the mulcher

Why not remane this site "Auspotensai" or "Auszeropotensai". Let's get out the mulcher and we can both feed all our trees through (let's be honest - none of our trees are Japanese master quality) and then we can all go and have a beer and watch some rugby! I need to reduce my collection of master potensai anyway as space is thin. I was also thinking of replacing my En with a Self-Flagelation Den where I can flog myself hourly for not being good enough!

[Craig]

Thankyou Lisavery well said

[Pup]

Yes as I said we all have one. The best thing is to learn what you can where you can. That is why I think competition is good especially one that shows progression of the trees.

How ever when it comes to dogs breakfast I believe that should not apply to rules. They must be precise and understandable.
That is the sole reason for this post.
Another example is this particular cutting. I was taken last September when pruning the parent plant. It had character, the sole reason for taking it.
Other than water and fertiliser nothing else has been done. It can be taken from the pot put into a Shito pot and virtually instant Shito just some wire and pruning.
It did however come from a tree that has and continues to have Bonsai practices performed. Technicaly this has had some training.

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[kcpoole]

Thankyou Lisavery well said

I agree Completely with you too

The rules are the rules and if anyone does not like them then do not submit a tree. If you object to them being applied to your tree then please lodge an appeal with Steven.
The comment was made about the pot and I agree. It does not matter what the pot is, nor really when potted as per the rules. If the owner wants to jamb the tree into a Bonsai pot, then they are only doing themselves a disservice in slowing down the development.

For the record, any tree that has been trunk chopped like Pups should be acceptable as there is no remnant of training by wire left on it. I applaud you Pup for offering the info and thus being disqualified, but I do not agree with the decision
I am fairly sure, that in amongst the entries there are some that should not qualify for the same reason, but the owners have not been as forthright as you. I myself have a nice stock tree I was going to enter until I remembered that it had wire in a previous incarnation.

Ken

[kcpoole]

Pup mate you misjudge the purpose of this Bonsai site, its not here to raise Australian Bonsai to the highest level its here to lower Bonsai standards to a crappy acceptable level thats just slightly above pot plant culture, its all about quantity not quality ... ie. the 100 000 posts thread, 90 000 posts of which were a load of shari containing 2 dollar sticks in pots, its about time the purveyors of bad bonsai that frequent this site were mercilessly flogged back into Burkes back yard were they belong so that the rest of us can concentrate on getting some some real fair dinkum Aussie bonsai trees that the traditional creators of Bonsai can at least take a second look at instead of gagging, of course I won't hold my breath on that one though

I think You might misjudge the purpose of this site Ozzy

From the banner at the top of the page

AusBonsai is a free resource where you can view, study and chat about bonsai from the comfort of your own computer. Like regular bonsai clubs, the success of AusBonsai depends on the participation of members. We ask that you contribute your ideas, knowledge and photos to help grow the art of bonsai in Australia.

I take that to mean that this site is there to benefit all levels of Bonsai Skill and talent we have. I do not see any "Sticks in Pots" Being promoted on the headline above? Are these not Quality?

Australia has many more newbies and inexperienced Bonsai practitioners than we do highly skilled accomplished artists, but does that mean that we should not allow the newbies to post their sticks in pots? If they do then I always try to let them know what they really should aspire to and how to get there. Only today I replied to a Stick post with a link to our wiki here and info on what a bonsai actually is https://www.ausbonsai.com.au/wiki/index. ... _Bonsai%3F
I hope the Member reads this and other info we have there, and gets some idea of what a bonsai should be, and what they should be aspiring to.

Hopefully my posts are more productive than the generic "stick it in the ground and come back in 5 years" type response. That does nothing to improve the knowledge, skill and desire to learn of any newbie.

Everyone started out somewhere and if by making the Wiki and similar tools easy and relevant, then hopefully in 10 years many of the newbies of today will be skilled artists.

The results from this comp will be judged by the members here, and the top 10 finishers I am sure will all be fine Shohin trees ( or well on the way). Many of the others will amount to not much, but hopefully all the owners will be inspired by those ten and go one to learn and better their own trees

That is the benefit of this and any other comp we have here

Ken

[Pup]

Again comment is made as to the pot not being part of the training.

A very simple analogy.
A piece of Stock in a styrene box or plastic pot. Put on the club show bench. Comments from nice stock to shari stock.

Put that same stock into a bonsai POT and the comments change from nice stock to nice Bonsai or shari Bonsai.
No difference but the POT.

Sorry for this comment, but asking the rules of someone, that has to ask what is acceptable, is not what I deem as appropriate rules.

You made the rules, you should know whether your tree is acceptable. It is not acceptable to say I did not make the rules, ask??

Again my appologisies if I have rubbed the Mods the wrong way on this.

Regards Pup