[Kerry 1] Ash eWorkshop

Ash eWorkshop
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Re: [Kerry 1] Ash eWorkshop

Post by Grant Bowie »

Kerry wrote:Hi Grant,
I must apologize for confusing the issue,
The picture I posted was from the end/ back quarter as you can see by the colored tapes so that I could show the angle between the trunk and the apex more clearly.
When looking from the red front side the photo does not show the angle of this branch very clearly probably because it was taken slightly looking up. In fact it looks almost to be in a good position.
In fact the branch/apex shown in the PDF attachment is actually the left hand one when viewed from the red or front side.

Taking that into account we are back to the question of how to if possible bend this thick branch to form the apex or some alternative.

Sorry for not being clearer

Bst Rgds Kerry
Sorry, my bad(as they say).

You could put a piece of wire around the portion to straigten up (padded against the branch with rubber or tubing) and then put the wire around the existing trunk(also padded) and pull it tight until the branch reaches the desired angle. This way you can test if you can bend it before you commit to removing the rest of the tree. If it bends OK leave the stub of the old trunk to act as the "Stake" for a year and it should be set in place and you could remove the stub you have left.

Grant
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Re: [Kerry 1] Ash eWorkshop

Post by Kerry »

Thanks for your suggestion Grant,
It makes good sense so I will give it a go tomorrow afternoon and see what happens.
Will keep you posted with a before and after pic.

Rgds Kerry
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Re: [Kerry 1] Ash eWorkshop

Post by Kerry »

Hi Grant,
With some trepidation I have tried moving the branch we chose for the apex if we decide to go with the larger chop option.

Could not move the branch at first so I used a guy wire tourniquet angled to the top of the existing trunk so that I could pull the branch upwards.
I think the result is not to bad but the wire to the top meant that we could not cut the trunk down.
To overcome that I attached two wires lower down then removed the high guy wire. These lower wires seem to be holding the new apex in place at this time so it should be OK.

The attached pics show what has been achieved.
There is still a little bulge apparent from the view more to the side but I do not think we could do much better while the original trunk section is in place.

Would appreciate your thoughts re if it is OK to proceed or do we need to try something else.

Look forward to your comments and directions.

Bst Rgds Kerry
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Re: [Kerry 1] Ash eWorkshop

Post by Grant Bowie »

yes looks fine.

Once the apex is removed in a year or so the tree will have a lovely shape and taper.

You could cut off above the tie wire but leave a small branch or two alive to keep the old apex alive. In spring keep these branches pinched back hard.

You could now do the wiring.

Worth considering copper wire in the future as it may make working on Ash easier.

grant
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Re: [Kerry 1] Ash eWorkshop

Post by Kerry »

Hi Grant,
Have cut off the old apex leaving a small branch to keep it alive.

Could you confirm that the sketch you have done is indicative of the intended branch shape after wiring

Have tried wiring with aluminium wire today but I think that the gauge necessary to hold the shape is to thick so I will try to buy some copper wire tomorrow.
Don't think my local Bonsai nursery has copper so will have to Google.

Will cut off the heavy front branch and was thinking of bending the back branch which is slightly higher down and across into the gap left by this removal.

Your comments will be appreciated

Bst Rgds Kerry
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Re: [Kerry 1] Ash eWorkshop

Post by Grant Bowie »

Kerry wrote:Hi Grant,
Have cut off the old apex leaving a small branch to keep it alive.

Could you confirm that the sketch you have done is indicative of the intended branch shape after wiring

Have tried wiring with aluminium wire today but I think that the gauge necessary to hold the shape is to thick so I will try to buy some copper wire tomorrow.
Don't think my local Bonsai nursery has copper so will have to Google.

Will cut off the heavy front branch and was thinking of bending the back branch which is slightly higher down and across into the gap left by this removal.

Your comments will be appreciated

Bst Rgds Kerry
Hi Kerry,

As they say; a battle plan lasts as long as the first contact. The sketch is certainly indicative of major placement but will need to be reviewed as you go along. As new buds and branches emerge in spring I would use as many as possible of them as possible. Also keep more branches and branchlets than you think you need at the apex.

Do the major cuts first and seal. If I were doing the job from here (a deciduous tree) I would start at the top or bottom of the tree and thin out the unnecessary branchlets by making sure they all branch continuously into 2(Branch then minor branch etc.)

You could set the major branches with heavy wire(If the aluminium is not heavy enough still apply and then pull down with a wire attached(padded if possible) to a strong root.

Then wire set all the branches and branchlets right out to the tips starting with the lowest branch upwards.

Grant
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Re: [Kerry 1] Ash eWorkshop

Post by Kerry »

Thanks Grant,
Will start with thinning out branchlets as necessary then the chop and move on to wiring either with aluminium or copper whichever I end up with.
Hopefully will be able to have a shot at this tomorrow so looking forward to seeing how much trouble I can get myself into.

Your advice is as always concise and helpful, Thanks & Bst Rgds Kerry
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Re: [Kerry 1] Ash eWorkshop

Post by Grant Bowie »

Kerry wrote:Thanks Grant,
Will start with thinning out branchlets as necessary then the chop and move on to wiring either with aluminium or copper whichever I end up with.
Hopefully will be able to have a shot at this tomorrow so looking forward to seeing how much trouble I can get myself into.

Your advice is as always concise and helpful, Thanks & Bst Rgds Kerry
Welcome and good bonsaiing.

Grant
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Re: [Kerry 1] Ash eWorkshop

Post by Kerry »

Hi Grant,
Have removed the heavy front branch, trimmed some of the branchlets and wired the tree roughly in accordance with your sketch.
Decided to leave the top back branch and have bent down and across it to partially cover the gap left by the large front branch removal.

I have no idea what to do with the mess of branches in the new apex as they are basically "T" branches so would appreciate your thoughts on what to do.
If you could put a line through which of them should go it would be a help.

There are a few small branchlets that I have left at the top back of the tree at this stage until I see how the old apex stub survives.

Would really appreciate your guidance as to any improvements to make.

Rgds Kerry
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Re: [Kerry 1] Ash eWorkshop

Post by Grant Bowie »

Above the wire and blue padding there is an area that splits into 2 major lines. Keep the two heavy branches, remove the small one at the same level pointing to the left and down.

Shorten the apex single line at the very top down to 2 or 3 buds.

Wire what is left on top; there also seem to be 2 branches at the back below the wire and blue padding which you can wire and incorporate into the design.

The future apex and branches may not have emerged yet as they may still be buds. As we go into the growth part of the season we will be doing lots of trimming, defoliation, wiring, back budding etc.

Good work so far, the apex you have straightened may be set in place within 6 months and the old apex can be removed.

Grant
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Re: [Kerry 1] Ash eWorkshop

Post by Kerry »

Hi Grant,
Thanks for your comments and advice.
Just want to clarify the Apex treatment you have suggested so have attached another pic with modifications marked

I have outlined in black & hashed the branches where I think you have said to cut & remove.

The red outline is what I think you have suggested to wire. (plus the two small back branches)
The branches I have shown for wiring are fairly leggy for the apex so I am not so sure about them. Of course I can wire them as branches and shorten to better proportions once we get some growth if that is what we are after.

Your comments will be appreciated.

Bst Rgds Kerry
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Re: [Kerry 1] Ash eWorkshop

Post by Grant Bowie »

Kerry wrote:Hi Grant,
Thanks for your comments and advice.
Just want to clarify the Apex treatment you have suggested so have attached another pic with modifications marked

I have outlined in black & hashed the branches where I think you have said to cut & remove.

The red outline is what I think you have suggested to wire. (plus the two small back branches)
The branches I have shown for wiring are fairly leggy for the apex so I am not so sure about them. Of course I can wire them as branches and shorten to better proportions once we get some growth if that is what we are after.

Your comments will be appreciated.

Bst Rgds Kerry
I would remove the lower of the red areas. it is coming from a point that already has 2 main branches coming of it and it will continue to swell.

The two branches to the rear lower down are to be wired and incorporated. Lots of buds will emerge all over; especially after wiring down an Ash branch.

I will photograph an Ash I was working on at the collection. I am however on a 10 day break from the collection as of today so it may take a little while..

Cheers.

Grant
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Re: [Kerry 1] Ash eWorkshop

Post by Grant Bowie »

PS. Even at the top of the tree keep the most vigorous branches and branchlets as long as they are going in the right direction and keep no more than 1 branch at each junction.(Always the 2 x 2 x 2 mantra).

This will help taper!

We will take advantage of new growth as it emerges.

grant
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Re: [Kerry 1] Ash eWorkshop

Post by Kerry »

Hi Grant,
The Apex 1 pic shows how it looks now that I have made the cuts suggested to the apex area but I am not sure about the right hand top branch as it seems to be to thick and long for the apex.
Your thoughts will be appreciated.

Also attached Apex 2 pic to show more clearly the two small branches at the back that we were looking at wiring.
I have drawn a line approximating where the apex cut will be made and I think that it shows that these two branches will not be in the final design.
If you agree with this thought I might remove them to avoid any more thickening in the top are as they grow. ?????

Look forward to hearing your comments

Bst Rgds Kerry
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Re: [Kerry 1] Ash eWorkshop

Post by Grant Bowie »

Kerry wrote:Hi Grant,
The Apex 1 pic shows how it looks now that I have made the cuts suggested to the apex area but I am not sure about the right hand top branch as it seems to be to thick and long for the apex.
Your thoughts will be appreciated.

Also attached Apex 2 pic to show more clearly the two small branches at the back that we were looking at wiring.
I have drawn a line approximating where the apex cut will be made and I think that it shows that these two branches will not be in the final design.
If you agree with this thought I might remove them to avoid any more thickening in the top are as they grow. ?????

Look forward to hearing your comments

Bst Rgds Kerry
Apex 2. Remove one of the two branches(the one going to the left in the picTure which appears longer). This will only leave one branch at this level which will look better and not over thicken.

Apex 1. It is OK as is. The longer seemly long apex bit it is going into spring growth; the more buds it will sprout and the new branchlets will be small. We can cut back when we defoliate in around November and we will have some lovely small branches to work with.

Lower down there are two wired branches at the same level. You could remove one of them. Keep the one that gives the best space filling.(Probably the lower thinner branch in this case is the best to keep.

Grant
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