Re: Tokoname: I don't get it. Whats the big deal?
Posted: June 16th, 2015, 11:01 am
Is it possible to make a living producing bonsai pots in Australia? or A hobby/passion?
Australian Bonsai Community
https://www.ausbonsai.com.au/forum/
https://www.ausbonsai.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=20067
Hi Andrew, yes I can understand that too. However, Pat is not human. He has fireballs that come out of his hands, and lightning bolts eject from his bottom when he spins the wheel. His pot making ability or price is not comparable to Tokotown.Andrew Legg wrote: As for Tok pots, to me the name carries some kind of assurance of basic decent quality. Let's not forget that you can buy Tok pots from a catalogue, and whilst in general they are well made, the really valuable ones are not catalogue pots, but rather handmade pots by the master craftsmen with individualism. If PatK spent a bu ch of time making a lovely custom pot for your tree, you'd be willing to pay more for that then if you bought one from her that she'd stamped out in some form of small production run with twenty others. That's just a reflection of the time and individuality that's gone into making something, whether it's a pot, a piece of clothing, a meal or anything else for that matter.
Yeah, it would be a very interesting concept, but I don't think you'd need one of our potters to replicate them, you can purchase similar pots in other countries already, but I would certainly be interested in what potters thought of a different styling comparative. You could start the equivalent of the "Iron Pot" tv show on a thread, Ken. I'm sure you'd get worldwide attention.kcpoole wrote:Been following this with interest and had a thought today.
can someone Quantify what makes a "great pot"?
Take 2 pots of similar size, style, clay, etc and without any identification marks, or knowing which was which, how to tell the better one of the 2. I am assuming that they are both 1st quality with no defects, What makes a Tokoname pot better?
Pat K, ( or any other potter) in your experience could you make a duplicate of a Tokoname pot that is indistinguishable ( aside from Chop) from the original?
if not, why?
Ken
Your post is funny. Though, having tried wine it is kind of similar to this discussion in a way yes. I have been at a Hunter Valley winery and told the cellarman that I prefer reds from Barossa / Margaret River / McLaren Vale because of the strong flavour of their cab. However, he said he doubted I could really tell the difference. I had quite an enjoyable time with this gentleman and he was determined to prove me wrong. He and his salesperson poured 6 wines without telling me anything about them. He said 3 are from those areas and 3 are from the Hunter. I told him after trying them all that I was surprised because I only liked 1 of them. My wife liked them all He asked which one I liked, and it turns out he had tried to trick me. Apparently I had selected the only 1 that was from the Barossa and the rest were from the Hunter. He technically explained it as probably being the slight peppery or weak flavour of the reds from the Hunter as the reasoning. I sometimes read the back of the labels of wines and think... 'what a load of tripe'. He did indeed say the back of the labels are often just a beat up for the upper market to justify their purchase.thoglette wrote:I like wine. I can't afford really, really good Bordeaux. I used to be able to afford Cullens somewhat similar wine (my bottle of '85 cost $15 - I shudder to think what replacing that would cost today ) but they have been "discovered" and are getting prices that reflect that. Now I hunt wines from grapes grown around the corner, from mom-and-pop operations, making similar wine (there's still some left) .Rory wrote: in my opinion we place too much emphasis on importing Tokoname pots. I feel that Australian / American potters produce as good as quality if not better in my opinion... for the price you only have to pay here.
.....
Likewise, while the best Ozzie potters will never match the best Tokoname pots, the best work by PK's et al. will be collectable 50 years on. How silly the asking price will be is impossible to tell today.
In regards to my Australian made pots. I never intend to sell them, and have never and never will see them as investments. If you want to invest, go to the stock market, history will reward you. My pots will be passed on to my son / daughter in the hope that they develop an interest in bonsai, otherwise provided I don't have financial issues in future I would give them to fellow bonsai enthusiasts closer to my demise.thoglette wrote: If you were smart (or committed) you'd be doing your best Herb & Dorothy Vogel impersonation and collecting the best of the best NOW instead of complaining!
Hey Ken,kcpoole wrote:Jason I agree that it is really hard to compete on price, but I am not really talking about price.
I would like someone to quantify ( if possible). What makes a good Tokoname pot.
Grant mentioned that he is going over to buy a couple of pallets of pots, but also mentioned that he cannot get pots big enough in Australia. Fair enough, but my Question to Grant, is your pallets going to be full of big stuff unavailable here?
If you are getting small ones too then I ask the question,
What makes (new) smaller size Tokoname pots better than locally produced pots? Price?, Quality? Clay types?
Ken
Amen brother. Why would you want to, when your pots have their own signature style. If Aussie potters made Japanese style pots then this discussion might make sense. It is the very fact that you and other Aussie potters can produce pots unlike any in the rest of the world that makes them special (at least I haven't seen anyone creating pots like yours - and at this point if they did I would write it off as a Pat K copy).Pat K wrote: The best of the Japanese pots are a delight and I marvel at the skill of their creators but they are not the pots I want to make.
Peace,
Pat
I do understand what you are saying Mo, and thank you for all your insights.MoGanic wrote: However, on the original question, the entire point of this thread, is asking why people fall in love with Tokoname produced pots.
Well, you may as well ask why the hell any of us do Bonsai, or why when we have decided to do Bonsai do some of us rave on about Tridents and others about Junipers while yet more about some obscure species no one has ever heard of. Heck if anything I'd like to know why so many people are buying Hyundais when for the same price you could get a gorgeous Alfa and have some left over (I love italian cars hence I prefer Alfas while other people will prefer value for money - for me value is style... Lets not even open up that can of worms).
Perhaps replying 6 times in this thread has ironically something to do with it. (I mean this in a good way as by definition it may not be that simple as so many users have expressed their thoughts)MoGanic wrote: I for one cannot understand how this discussion has gone on for so long, as for me it is as simple as do what you like to your trees!
This is a good question?Gerard wrote:Is it possible to make a living producing bonsai pots in Australia? or A hobby/passion?
I have a solution!Rory wrote:I do understand what you are saying Mo, and thank you for all your insights.MoGanic wrote: However, on the original question, the entire point of this thread, is asking why people fall in love with Tokoname produced pots.
Well, you may as well ask why the hell any of us do Bonsai, or why when we have decided to do Bonsai do some of us rave on about Tridents and others about Junipers while yet more about some obscure species no one has ever heard of. Heck if anything I'd like to know why so many people are buying Hyundais when for the same price you could get a gorgeous Alfa and have some left over (I love italian cars hence I prefer Alfas while other people will prefer value for money - for me value is style... Lets not even open up that can of worms).
The original question was, why the obsession with Tokoname, when you can acquire similar pots from many other countries and so on. And more so, not to perhaps inadvertantly focus on the name of a pot over all else. Being in Australia, my aim was to highlight as my first motive, and secondly to perhaps open the minds to question the stamp on the pot.
Perhaps replying 6 times in this thread has ironically something to do with it. (I mean this in a good way as by definition it may not be that simple as so many users have expressed their thoughts)MoGanic wrote: I for one cannot understand how this discussion has gone on for so long, as for me it is as simple as do what you like to your trees!
Mirkwood is a fictional forest in the Lord of The Rings.... would that perhaps cause confusion?Gerard wrote:Thanks Pat.
Red dirt will not work, Tokoname is famous for its red clay.
'Mirkwood pots' is the go. (which are made by Pat Kennedy)
In fact, "Tokoname" is loosely translated in Black Speech as, "Mordor".Gerard wrote:Thanks Pat.
Red dirt will not work, Tokoname is famous for its red clay.
'Mirkwood pots' is the go. (which are made by Pat Kennedy)
Well that settles it for me. Although not all of our potters will be from here, I think it is a good word. Mirkwood. Yes. I like it.Rory wrote:In fact, "Tokoname" is loosely translated in Black Speech as, "Mordor".Gerard wrote:Thanks Pat.
Red dirt will not work, Tokoname is famous for its red clay.
'Mirkwood pots' is the go. (which are made by Pat Kennedy)