Image ethics/protocol

[PaulC]

Hi everyone,

was just wondering if anyone might be able to inform me of any protocol that may be needed or considered
when posting images of others poeples bonsai or plant material ?

I was prompted to think of this from moganics thread on Hinoki cypress.

viewtopic.php?f=130&t=12632

Isitangus mentions Khan Lim`s Hinoki forest, which I have images of, but was wondering if permission may be required before
a post can be made with the image ?

If so, how do pictures from shows and events fare when it comes to image posting as well ?

If a tree is on display, such as in a show, does that give the public right to use the trees pictures in any way, or am I just thinking too much ?

Any information or thoughts would be appreciated.

Regards,


Paul C

[Pup]

G,day Paul, this is a touchy subject. At our club shows we tried to stop or dissuade the general public from taking photographs. Mainly for security, and to stop theft because they thought they were valuable to every body.

With the innovation of phone cameras and ipods and iphones it became almost impossible to stop, plus the threat of violence, so we just asked them to be discrete,
in where they published them.

There is a guy in WA who went along to Bonsai shows to look at the trees, take pictures. Then he used them to advertise his sales of Seed world wide on Ebay.
He has been approached by the owners of the trees, his answer is they are my images, which by the way they are not.

So it is a can of worms, my take on it for what it is worth. Where permission can be obtained, please do that, where it cannot please credit the owner of the tree.

Not with, a this was taken in a backyard in where ever.

Remember please this is my opinion,and we all have and are entitled to one.
Cheeres Pup

[Isitangus]

Interesting topic!!! I think legally the image belongs to whoever has it, if you had permission to take it. Use a wedding for example, you pay a photographer, he/she then owns the photos and negatives etc, can use them in their marketing etc without you even knowing.
I think as a courteously thing you should either have the permission of the persons plant to use them, or b, ensure the persons whose plants they are, are appropriately acknowledged. Personally if I had bonsai worth taking pics of I would be happy for someone to post them as long as it was not for financial or self gain.
I'm glad someone got pics of the hinoki forest, my pics did not work out

[Mojo Moyogi]

Comment removed by author.

Cheers,
Mojo

[Andrew Legg]

Hi Paul,

I am not a legal expert, but I am an amateur photographer and have read many magazines where this discussion is had. I follow the following guidelines:

1.) If you are in someone's private garden and take photos, then you do so only with their permission, and use them in any public forum only with their permission and with acknowledgement.

2.) If you are attending a public display, you need to establish whether they have a policy of any sort on the matter. If photography is discouraged or forbidden, then I think the message is clear. If photography is allowed, then I believe you can use them with acknowledgement of the event and owner if you have the information. If the trees are displayed without owner's details, respect that if reproducing. People who put their trees on public display are in essence opening them up for public consumption, and hence do not have the right to refuse reuse unless they stipulate a no photography rule up front. If however you plan to make use of the image for commercial gain, I feel it is best to get permission.

3.) For me the tricky one is what one does in a club/demo scenario. In this case there are often people taking photos of trees, and unless there is a specific club policy that addresses the matter I think it is fair to assume the same as above. Again, for commercial use, ask for permission.

4.) For internet photos, I think the right thing to do is to check the site for any copyright statements. If none exist, I feel it is OK to reuse the image unless for commercial purposes.

With all that said, I've found very few people to be negative toward a request to use an image in our free club newsletter. Most of the time, they are flattered, and just to show appreciation, I send them a copy of the newsletter as a little gesture of thanks. Think of bonsai like art. Once it is in the public arena, it is in the public arena. When being used for no commercial gain, images are fair game, but be conscious of people's feelings. Where people will get upset is when you put an image up and say "Look at this great example of a rubbish cascade design. It has all these errors, oh, and just in case you are wondering, it belongs to that jackass Mr. Joe Soap.".

Cheers,

Andrew

[alpharipper]

Hi all,

I am new to your forum and already love it. I have only been doing Bonsai for a few years and have much to learn.

On another note, I have been a pro photographer for many years. This is a really grey area in the photography business. You will find it hard in any court to stop photography that is in a public place. The copyright issue is another thing altogether.

A person or persons who create an artwork has leagal copyright over the item. Thus if any image, drawing or direct replication is taken the artist must be named etc and give permission. Know for the big question, is bonsai an art work. The answer would be yes, many years of creating a piece to become a piece of art. Therfore any person taking an image drawing etc would need full permission to replicate or display the image or work.

A media release must be signed by the owner (creator) for the person using the image, drawing. An argument is that the photographer creates art when taking an image, this is correct but taking of another art piece is copyright to the original artwork. We all have those rights. A photographer can not take an image of a model, cartoon and reproduce it without permission so why can they think they can do it for other art work.

Simple answer a sign saying photography permited with written consent from owner and not to be used etc etc. A good one is no flash photography, you can catch someone using a flash, and normally inside shots are not good from phone and cheap cameras.

Stopping people taking images can pose and issue though with resentment and frustration.

As I said it is a complicated area and a hard one to control. Legal action is expensive and long winded, the best thing I could say is grin and bear it, take it as a compliment. With saying that before I get jumped on, I dont take a camera to a bonsai show!. Good luck with it all, it will only get worse as people think they can do what they want and publish what they want.

As for wedding photography the photographer actually has the rights to the originals. The art was created by the photographer so therefore they have copyright. There has been some big cases worldwide with this one. For me, I dont do weddings anymore but the client got the lot. Not my issues after they have all the images and negatives. Made my life easier.

Andrew P

[cre8ivbonsai]

Thanks Andrew, very insightful.

... and welcome to AusBonsai

Cheers,
Ryan

[Andrew Legg]

Thanks Andrew, very insightful.

... and welcome to AusBonsai

Cheers,
Ryan

Pleasure mate!