Casuarina...to collect or not collect, that is the question.

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daiviet_nguyen
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Re: Casuarina...to collect or not collect, that is the question.

Post by daiviet_nguyen »

Pup wrote: ...
So that is land management because they paid a $50.000 fine and moved on.
They would have probably got some of the $50.000 back from the ATO if this was a business expense?
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Re: Casuarina...to collect or not collect, that is the question.

Post by Damian Bee »

My point is that even with the level of synicism towards different Govt departments in regards to protecting native flora, there are still individuals that use this as an excuse to do as the developers would do and take it anyway. This is in conflict with the attitude towards the bulldozer approach in that people get peeved when a stand of trees is cleared as they then go on to justify why they have the right to remove trees wherever. If this is the standard then lets take everything because it might get trashed. Without having any real understanding of local management stratagies towards protecting and re-establishing local flora.

For example, the Casuarinas pictured in this post appear to be on a recently developed/renovated stretch of road. The trees in question are a valuable part of the Local ecosystem providing food and habitat for a select range of fauna, what if the other remnant Casuarina are under threat or there are no more around in the immediate area? Removing these removes them completely from the local landscape. Who knows what the conditions were regarding this tree? Perhaps it was cut back by an inexperienced worker by mistake or slashed because the operator was lazy and out for a quick buck? What if it was cut back to promote suckering and increase the vegetation on the roadside?

Pup has the right approach, getting the right license and permits to enquire and collect what he wants. If people practising Bonsai do wish to collect material they should take the same approach, otherwise as shibui mentioned
shibui wrote:My guess is these are suckers from the roots of a tree that has been cut down. Is there a stump in the first pic?
If they are suckers you will probably find that there is a long thick root with few feeder roots so not worth collecting in my opinion.
I also have to agree with Damian - try to avoid pillaging trees from the wild as few survive then no one gets to appreciate them at all!
Know your stuff and avoid dissapointment.

Although I am annoyed at the attitude towards collection from the wild on this forum however, I just want Bonsai practitioners to be a little better educated in this area and keep the reputation of Bonsai upright in Australia rather than being seen as a dodgy interest group with loose standards and a self interested attitude. We would all like to have a awesome tree collection but what is wrong with going about it the right way. There's always going to be individuals who will operate outside the correct channels but there is no reason for others to do the same. :2c: :2c: :2c:
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Re: Casuarina...to collect or not collect, that is the question.

Post by shibui »

well said again Damian,
I too am happy to promote collecting plants under imminent threat with appropriate permission and knowledge.
I am dead against opportunistic digging of native plants but this is not the right thread to go on at this time :| . More later for sure.
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Re: Casuarina...to collect or not collect, that is the question.

Post by craigw60 »

I am totally with you Damian, we have an abundance of weed species in this country ripe for collection why not stick to digging them up and leave our native plants where they belong.
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Re: Casuarina...to collect or not collect, that is the question.

Post by Pup »

craigw60 wrote:I am totally with you Damian, we have an abundance of weed species in this country ripe for collection why not stick to digging them up and leave our native plants where they belong.
Craigw
In WA you still need permission to dig weed species. You cannot legally dig any thing that is not on private land with out permission from the local Authority. As has been pointed out even the noxious weed called the Queensland box here as it is poisonous to animals and humans. ( friend of mine had his water tanks polluted by them and was very sick)

This tree is now an alternative food source for the Red tailed Black Cockatoo. So permission to collect even that weed is needed. How ever sometimes doing the covert operations is sometimes needed because waiting is too late.

A large block of land near where I live was marked for development, permission was sought after 4 months of waiting, another approach all in writing and verbally.
Stating what was to been collected from where, assurances given, as to leaving no holes no rubbish. After 2 more years still no answer. some trees were saved.
5 years later still no answer given, but the land has been cleared of all vegetation. So sometimes even trying to do the right thing is not always the way to go.

We are in a different position from you in the East as we have still a lot of development and mining going on.
So collecting Natives is still a viable option for us.
Try to do the right thing whenever possible though, even with the Olives so abundant in SA.
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Re: Casuarina...to collect or not collect, that is the question.

Post by Luke308 »

Damian Bee wrote: For example, the Casuarinas pictured in this post appear to be on a recently developed/renovated stretch of road. The trees in question are a valuable part of the Local ecosystem providing food and habitat for a select range of fauna, what if the other remnant Casuarina are under threat or there are no more around in the immediate area? Removing these removes them completely from the local landscape. Who knows what the conditions were regarding this tree? Perhaps it was cut back by an inexperienced worker by mistake or slashed because the operator was lazy and out for a quick buck? What if it was cut back to promote suckering and increase the vegetation on the roadside? :2c: :2c: :2c:

WOW someone has had a bad day?

I was only asking a simple question, not asking for a debate or a rant but just to clear up your statements, it is not a recently developed or renovated stretch of road, it is in fact in an industrial area made up of primarily mechanic workshops, and this is a back road which has 3 workshops on it. Other than that it is used as a road for road testing vehicles after services.On a weekend you would be lucky to see anyone driving down there besides idiots looking to fry their tyres doing burnouts at night time. The only thing that has happened on this road in the past 4 years is a fence has been put up to stop motorbike riders, and 4WD enthusiasts tearing up government land which incorporates a creek and many native species of flora and fauna. I am unsure how you can get so high up on your horse from an innocent post which states I plan on seeking permission from relevant authorities prior to collection. I totally agree with you about your comments regarding individuals giving bonsai enthusiasts a bad name, but I have recently received permission from the local council to dig native trees that are soon to be removed to make way for the Southern Expressway duplication. So given I already have built a rapport, and they were quite interested to hear my plans, I think gaining permission for something like these casuarina's shouldn't be a worry.

The fact you can state so much about the area from one phone quality photo has me thinking you should be working in forensics :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Casuarina...to collect or not collect, that is the question.

Post by daiviet_nguyen »

In my mind, the local councils know about their local area: hence vacant public lands, public facilities, parks etc.

And so the point of seeking permissions to collect natives/weeds etc on public lands is to ensure that we do not inadvertently dig up the stuff that should be there. For example, stuff that planted by the councils for vegetation regeneration etc. And hence we do not commit environmental vandalism: this is the whole point of seeking permission, is it not?

If we do not have permissions to collect it, then do not do it.

(True story: La Trobe University, Bundoora campus recently up rooted and mulched a few casuarinas on their own lands. Not sure why, but the machines ate the trees at a frightening speed! )
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Re: Casuarina...to collect or not collect, that is the question.

Post by Bretts »

Instead of elaborating on my view I thought it might be more productive to show a previous thread we have had on this topic.
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4876&hilit=collect

As you will see there is a fair balance of views from all in the bonsai community.

Simply I say use your own common sense if the councils don't have any.

Oh and I think Joel brings up some very important things to think about
Joel wrote:
davo wrote:Just a thought , why not after you dig up one of these "weeds" ;) Plant a native in its place?

Im sure the authorities would smile on this even if technically you are doing something wrong.
This is definitely NOT recommended. They do recommend this on some american sites but in australia it is too risky. The introduction of fungal or other diseases is too likely. Even if purchased from a registered nursery it is not recomended. Only appropriate authorities/bush regen. groups should do this.

Joel
Might be a good idea to just pick up some rubbish instead. Ever taken cuttlefish or shells from the beach. This is also illegal but one Ranger on the radio suggested that if you do take some cuttlefish for your birds then just take some rubbish with it as well. ;)

Joel has also brought it to our attention that in digging out another tree you may disturb other plants such as native orchids that are quite rare and very hard to see, So if you are to collect Natives or even exotics then do be very thoughtful in how you go about it.
Last edited by Bretts on February 17th, 2012, 9:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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