Western Australian Casuarina+Allocasuarina

She-Oak, Australian Pine
User avatar
dansai
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 1257
Joined: May 17th, 2010, 5:33 pm
Favorite Species: Aussie Natives
Bonsai Age: 5
Bonsai Club: Coffs Harbour
Location: Mid North Coast, NSW, Australia
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 127 times

Re: Western Australian Casuarina+Allocasuarina

Post by dansai »

From the look at your mix it doesn't look over watered. And it looks very gritty and well drained. I have only ever lost a few trees from overwatering and they were jack pines that probably didn't like my sub tropical climate, a red pine that was in a very heavy mix and I suspect a leapt that just never grew roots and the mix was like mush under the rootball by the time it finally carked it. I water heavily and frequently, and with over 2000 plants from seedlings to trees, very few get watering tailored specific to them. I have lost far more from drying out over the years, which in fact would be probably be 99%.

It still looks to me like a nutrient deficiency. The osmocote you put in was a six month release, which in hot weather would release far quicker so would be all gone by now. But then I would have expected a slight bounce back after the Charlie carp. And again with your Banksia, crispy leaves could indicate under watering as Charlie carp has very little phosphorus in it. Although if it had developed proteoid roots it may have given it a good knock around. It could also be something in your water getting to toxic levels that lock other nutrients up.

Having said all that, Rory has a lot more experience than I with Casuarina. I'd definitely be looking at your watering either way. Lift a pot up after giving it a really good watering and feel the weight. Then each time you go to water it lift it again. If it's still heavy, don't water. If it's really light, you didn't water early enough. How often are you watering at the moment? What sort of temperatures do you get? Is it windy? Where does your water come from?
Travelling the Mid North Coast of NSW and beyond to attend Markets and other events

www.bonsaibus.com.au - www.facebook.com/TheBonsaiBus - www.instagram.com/thebonsaibus
Patmet
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 300
Joined: March 31st, 2019, 8:21 am
Favorite Species: WA natives
Bonsai Age: 5
Bonsai Club: Albany Bonsai Collective, Bonsai Society of Western Australia
Location: Albany, Western Australia
Has thanked: 360 times
Been thanked: 479 times
Contact:

Re: Western Australian Casuarina+Allocasuarina

Post by Patmet »

dansai wrote: January 3rd, 2022, 8:26 am From the look at your mix it doesn't look over watered. And it looks very gritty and well drained. I have only ever lost a few trees from overwatering and they were jack pines that probably didn't like my sub tropical climate, a red pine that was in a very heavy mix and I suspect a leapt that just never grew roots and the mix was like mush under the rootball by the time it finally carked it. I water heavily and frequently, and with over 2000 plants from seedlings to trees, very few get watering tailored specific to them. I have lost far more from drying out over the years, which in fact would be probably be 99%.

It still looks to me like a nutrient deficiency. The osmocote you put in was a six month release, which in hot weather would release far quicker so would be all gone by now. But then I would have expected a slight bounce back after the Charlie carp. And again with your Banksia, crispy leaves could indicate under watering as Charlie carp has very little phosphorus in it. Although if it had developed proteoid roots it may have given it a good knock around. It could also be something in your water getting to toxic levels that lock other nutrients up.

Having said all that, Rory has a lot more experience than I with Casuarina. I'd definitely be looking at your watering either way. Lift a pot up after giving it a really good watering and feel the weight. Then each time you go to water it lift it again. If it's still heavy, don't water. If it's really light, you didn't water early enough. How often are you watering at the moment? What sort of temperatures do you get? Is it windy? Where does your water come from?
Yes it is a very gritty mix. Lots of coarse sand and aggregate. I suppose I err on the side of giving my trees more water because of this, thinking it would be hard to over water with that kind of drainage.

Yesterday having taken in everyone’s feedback and looking back at when I potted and applied the fertiliser I was thinking that. It was 6 months ago.

I’m pretty certain the banksia was getting enough water, I think the problem with that one is that it was neglected and rootbound when I got it with one very long straggly leader. It had a nice tapering trunk though that’s why I bought it. I then repotted and did a trunk chop lower down. This worked and it eventually started to shoot from buds on the half a dozen old leaves. This is when it got Charlie carped - the new shoots hadn’t hardened off yet and the tree was still getting established. I think it was just too much of a shock and the tree wasn’t strong enough to bounce back. I have several other banksias that are also WA local natives and they were fine with the Charlie carp.

With the recent weather I’m watering almost every day for my really thirsty water loving species, and then roughly every second day for the rest of my collection. All my house roof water goes into a 3000L rainwater tank and I water with that, and on the rare occasion that gets close to empty in summer I water with the mains water until we get rain again. The mains water is very hard here but I rarely have to use it.

I’m right down the bottom of WA in Albany so the weather is quite different from say Perth. We have a much milder summer with the usual max temp in the low to mid 20’s but does get to 30 and above on occasion. It’s been windy the past month December is generally the worst month of summer for us with warm north easterly winds. But that starts to die off in January/February. It’s already started to get better.
User avatar
Sno
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 1194
Joined: January 16th, 2011, 12:26 pm
Bonsai Age: 0
Location: Crackenback NSW
Has thanked: 485 times
Been thanked: 602 times
Contact:

Re: Western Australian Casuarina+Allocasuarina

Post by Sno »

I am watering twice a day at the moment and some trees 3 times a day depending on what stage the tree is developing at ie if I am pushing maximum growth out of the container it’s in . My mix is slightly coarser than yours but it’s mostly diatomite and pumice and that orchiata pine bark , which should have water holding properties . My pots are all shallower though so that may come into it . My climate is similar , a touch cooler especially at night .
The Banksia may have died whether you fed it or not . When I trunk chop I hold my breath :o until it is pushing proper growth and not just residual energy growth .
Patmet
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 300
Joined: March 31st, 2019, 8:21 am
Favorite Species: WA natives
Bonsai Age: 5
Bonsai Club: Albany Bonsai Collective, Bonsai Society of Western Australia
Location: Albany, Western Australia
Has thanked: 360 times
Been thanked: 479 times
Contact:

Re: Western Australian Casuarina+Allocasuarina

Post by Patmet »

Sno wrote: January 3rd, 2022, 10:55 am I am watering twice a day at the moment and some trees 3 times a day depending on what stage the tree is developing at ie if I am pushing maximum growth out of the container it’s in . My mix is slightly coarser than yours but it’s mostly diatomite and pumice and that orchiata pine bark , which should have water holding properties . My pots are all shallower though so that may come into it . My climate is similar , a touch cooler especially at night .
The Banksia may have died whether you fed it or not . When I trunk chop I hold my breath :o until it is pushing proper growth and not just residual energy growth .
Yeah that's exactly what i think with that banksia. Definitely got a bit too excited with that one! It's a shame but I'm learning from it. It may or may not have ended up working out i was going to see how far on the old wood i could get growth and try design it into a literati as it has the long slender trunk.

Here's what it was like when i got it and then what growth it had when it decided to give up.
20210628_161514.jpg
20211102_184153.jpg
20211128_175453.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
shibui
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 7653
Joined: August 22nd, 2009, 8:41 pm
Favorite Species: trident maple
Bonsai Age: 41
Bonsai Club: Albury/Wodonga; BSV; Canberra; VNBC
Location: Yackandandah
Has thanked: 65 times
Been thanked: 1399 times
Contact:

Re: Western Australian Casuarina+Allocasuarina

Post by shibui »

I'm also watering twice most days even the trees in training pots and my mix is 70% 6mm pine bark.
I've found that much depends on how you water. A sprinkle with the hose ort a watering can does not wet dried potting mix which becomes hydrophobic so that water only penetrates a cm or so then the rest runs out the bottom. Allow the first water to soak in for a few minutes then water again. That second water will penetrate further. A third watering may be needed to wet right to the centre. My morning water acts as a second watering as the mix is still a little damp from the previous evening watering so the morning water penetrates further in.

Trees that are root bound are even harder to water properly as the roots are filling all the spaces where water should go.
Banksias add more complexity as the fine roots fill pots even better and seem to be even more hydrophobic when dry. I used to lose many banksias in late spring as the temps rose. Autopsies showed crowded roots and the interior of the root ball dry even though I had been watering well. I now repot banksias more often, especially before the start of summer and have much better survival rates.
A light root trim and pot on with very different potting mix can cause another set of water problems as both water and roots can be reluctant to move from one soil type to the other. The new, outer, coarse soil may be properly wet while the older, inner soil is still dry.
I would urge all growers to investigate in the event of unexplained deaths to look for a cause. My findings seem to indicate that watering explains the vast majority of tree deaths here.

There was also mention of fertilizing just prior to the tree sickening. Banksias develop proteoid roots that scavenge for P. Banksias that have not been regularly fertilized have even more proteoid roots and are very susceptible to overdose. Charlie carp is not particularly high in P but may still have enough to kill a banksia that is not used to fert.

Banksias are also very susceptible to phytopthera root rot. Phytopthera can be introduced from other potted trees, soil components or on shoes and clothing from infected areas. I am not sure if there's any way of diagnosing phytopthera infection but if all other factors are good but susceptible trees still die I'd be looking at that as a possible cause.
http://shibuibonsai.com.au/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Patmet
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 300
Joined: March 31st, 2019, 8:21 am
Favorite Species: WA natives
Bonsai Age: 5
Bonsai Club: Albany Bonsai Collective, Bonsai Society of Western Australia
Location: Albany, Western Australia
Has thanked: 360 times
Been thanked: 479 times
Contact:

Re: Western Australian Casuarina+Allocasuarina

Post by Patmet »

shibui wrote: January 3rd, 2022, 11:22 am I'm also watering twice most days even the trees in training pots and my mix is 70% 6mm pine bark.
I've found that much depends on how you water. A sprinkle with the hose ort a watering can does not wet dried potting mix which becomes hydrophobic so that water only penetrates a cm or so then the rest runs out the bottom. Allow the first water to soak in for a few minutes then water again. That second water will penetrate further. A third watering may be needed to wet right to the centre. My morning water acts as a second watering as the mix is still a little damp from the previous evening watering so the morning water penetrates further in.

Trees that are root bound are even harder to water properly as the roots are filling all the spaces where water should go.
Banksias add more complexity as the fine roots fill pots even better and seem to be even more hydrophobic when dry. I used to lose many banksias in late spring as the temps rose. Autopsies showed crowded roots and the interior of the root ball dry even though I had been watering well. I now repot banksias more often, especially before the start of summer and have much better survival rates.
A light root trim and pot on with very different potting mix can cause another set of water problems as both water and roots can be reluctant to move from one soil type to the other. The new, outer, coarse soil may be properly wet while the older, inner soil is still dry.
I would urge all growers to investigate in the event of unexplained deaths to look for a cause. My findings seem to indicate that watering explains the vast majority of tree deaths here.

There was also mention of fertilizing just prior to the tree sickening. Banksias develop proteoid roots that scavenge for P. Banksias that have not been regularly fertilized have even more proteoid roots and are very susceptible to overdose. Charlie carp is not particularly high in P but may still have enough to kill a banksia that is not used to fert.

Banksias are also very susceptible to phytopthera root rot. Phytopthera can be introduced from other potted trees, soil components or on shoes and clothing from infected areas. I am not sure if there's any way of diagnosing phytopthera infection but if all other factors are good but susceptible trees still die I'd be looking at that as a possible cause.
I feel as though i water thoroughly as i really flood the pots, let them drain, and then come back to them a couple of times doing the same. I could be mistaken though, I am going through the process now of really analysing how well i water. I'll take that into account and see if i'm definitely penetrating the center enough.

I definitely know what you mean about those proteoid roots. I have repotted various plants from the proteacea family from the nursery mix and find they have these super tight dense clumps of those fine roots that are super hard to penetrate with water.

I know phytophthora root rot is a big problem here. Especially our WA natives that live in the dry sandy/rocky areas get absolutely devastated by it - Which Banksia Attenuata is one of those. I recently had a woolly bush and a grevillea obtusifolia both which i have a thread for on here thriving for several years and then both dying in the same way after we had this extremely wet winter. For a while i thought it was because of things i had done but it still didn't quite make sense. Upon a lot of discussion and examination with the most experienced bonsai enthusiast in my area we think it was likely to be phytophthora. Both of these specimens came from the same nursery - Which is just an old man on a dense bush property who grows only natives. He has excellent specimens for bonsai as they are all kept in small pots, many 10/20 plus years old and are allowed to grow very gnarly in harsh conditions. The problem is that they are in very dense compact soil and have poor roots. This other bonsai enthusiast has had the same problems as me with stock from this particular nursery, and has heard rumour of him collecting things from the ground in bush where there is possibly phytophthora. It seems to only happen with the plants i have bought from him in the proteacea family i have others like kunzeas and melaleuca that have been ok so far. Definitely something to look out for though
Patmet
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 300
Joined: March 31st, 2019, 8:21 am
Favorite Species: WA natives
Bonsai Age: 5
Bonsai Club: Albany Bonsai Collective, Bonsai Society of Western Australia
Location: Albany, Western Australia
Has thanked: 360 times
Been thanked: 479 times
Contact:

Re: Western Australian Casuarina+Allocasuarina

Post by Patmet »

So it's been about a week since i repotted the two Allocasuarina into a fresh mix and a slightly bigger pot. They have had new slow release fertiliser as well.

By the looks of it they are starting to green up and look a bit better already. I think I'll have a better idea in the coming weeks.
20220111_173530.jpg
20220111_173540.jpg
20220111_173637.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Patmet
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 300
Joined: March 31st, 2019, 8:21 am
Favorite Species: WA natives
Bonsai Age: 5
Bonsai Club: Albany Bonsai Collective, Bonsai Society of Western Australia
Location: Albany, Western Australia
Has thanked: 360 times
Been thanked: 479 times
Contact:

Re: Western Australian Casuarina+Allocasuarina

Post by Patmet »

After another month I can confidently say They are on the upward trajectory now. I have been keeping a close eye on them and they show signs of improvement every few days. I make sure to let them get somewhat dry between waterings now. The Humils Dwarf Sheoak is improving in colour slower than the Huegeliana Rock Sheoak, and i believe this to be because the Humilis is even less tolerant of being too wet, coming from the sandy coastal dunes.

I am sure now that Rory was on the money with over watering. The conditions these two particular species grow in nature are very dry. I have a couple of Casuarina Obesa, the Swamp Sheoak and i water those heavily with no decline in health.

Here is what they look like as of yesterday:
20220211_172433.jpg
20220211_172538.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Patmet
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 300
Joined: March 31st, 2019, 8:21 am
Favorite Species: WA natives
Bonsai Age: 5
Bonsai Club: Albany Bonsai Collective, Bonsai Society of Western Australia
Location: Albany, Western Australia
Has thanked: 360 times
Been thanked: 479 times
Contact:

Re: Western Australian Casuarina+Allocasuarina

Post by Patmet »

After a year of letting these just grow and do their thing, they have made a full recovery and are now nice and healthy again. It's been a bit of a setback not making much development progress, but definitely necessary.

Looking back I think over watering played a big part in the decline of health. I pay close attention to the moisture levels now, especially for the Allocasuarina Humilis. A dose of iron sulfate occasionally when things start to yellow slightly has been positive as well.

I have learnt over the past year or so (especially with all my WA natives) that when growing from tubestock, not to pot up too much bigger each time as the soil stays too wet while the tree is trying to send out roots. Once well established in the pot they can take up the water with ease. This has been a crucial learning point for me and I'm having less setbacks now.

Image

Humilis from front

Image

Humilis from back

Image

Humilis trunk

Image

Huegeliana

Image

Huegeliana trunk. Interesting deep fissuring bark on this.

Image

Fraseriana

Image

Fraseriana trunk

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk

Kier
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 13
Joined: February 26th, 2023, 12:07 pm
Favorite Species: Juniper
Bonsai Age: 0
Location: WA Perth hills
Has thanked: 17 times
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Western Australian Casuarina+Allocasuarina

Post by Kier »

Really cool little trees! Great to see some WA natives. Especially loving the shape of the humilis.
User avatar
Rory
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 2807
Joined: January 23rd, 2013, 11:19 pm
Favorite Species: Baeckea Phebalium Casuarina & Banksia
Bonsai Age: 24
Location: Central Coast, NSW
Has thanked: 22 times
Been thanked: 456 times

Re: Western Australian Casuarina+Allocasuarina

Post by Rory »

Looking better Patmet. Good to see them coming along well.

Many casuarina that are drought tolerant and grow in very dry climates can deteriorate with somewhat constant wet feet. I lost many Casuarina in my early days which had an aversion to fairly constant wet feet.

Of the Casuarina varieties that naturally do well in swampy or forest environments it isn't normally an issue with constant water, and it is often why people think that all Casuarina love constant wet feet because they are usually the most commonly grown Casuarina and thus they assume all Casuarina are the same for their watering requirements.

Not a guarantee ; but problems resulting from Casuarina being susceptible to over-watering is that the foliage slowly wilts over time, or yellowing. This can often be the Casys feet staying wet too long and not drying out between waterings and/or not having enough sun. (over-potted casys can produce this effect if the species doesn't like a constant wet mix).

Not a guarantee ; but problems resulting from Casuraina drying out, is that the foliage will die quickly (within a few days) and go crunchy and can be crunched like dry leaves.

Anyway, I hope they get better and gnarly for you as time goes on.
Rory
I style Bonsai naturally, just as they would appear in the wild.
Central Coast, NSW
Bonsai: Casuarina Leptospermum Banksia Phebalium Baeckea Melalueca Ficus

Growing Australian natives as Bonsai: viewtopic.php?p=289480#p289480

Buying and repotting Native nursery material: viewtopic.php?f=78&t=30724

Growing tips for Casuarina as Bonsai: viewtopic.php?p=244995#p244995

How to reduce moss from the trunk without damaging the bark: viewtopic.php?p=295227#p295227
Patmet
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 300
Joined: March 31st, 2019, 8:21 am
Favorite Species: WA natives
Bonsai Age: 5
Bonsai Club: Albany Bonsai Collective, Bonsai Society of Western Australia
Location: Albany, Western Australia
Has thanked: 360 times
Been thanked: 479 times
Contact:

Re: Western Australian Casuarina+Allocasuarina

Post by Patmet »

The Fraseriana is coming along now. I'm still thinking about the first lowest branch whether that will stay in the design, but if not I will jin it so it can stay as a sacrifice for now anyway. It's just starting to develop mature bark on the lower trunk. The bark on this species is orange brown and rough and flaky like rust.
Screenshot_20231114_171146_Gallery.jpg
Before pruning
Screenshot_20231114_171053_Gallery.jpg
After
Screenshot_20231114_171045_Gallery.jpg
Other side
Screenshot_20231114_171031_Gallery.jpg
Bark
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
Rory
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 2807
Joined: January 23rd, 2013, 11:19 pm
Favorite Species: Baeckea Phebalium Casuarina & Banksia
Bonsai Age: 24
Location: Central Coast, NSW
Has thanked: 22 times
Been thanked: 456 times

Re: Western Australian Casuarina+Allocasuarina

Post by Rory »

Looking good there bud.

Just take note though, as you now have a Casy with basically no foliage, with a decent sized pot.
The tree will not be pulling much water out of that mix for a long time now. So just be careful again with watering.
It will drastically reduce how much water it needs to be given. :beer:

I used to have no qualms reducing casys like you have, but now I subscribe to the school of 'healthy hair'....I prefer to cut back natives in stages, rather than a massive reduction of foliage in one go.

You should see a mass of new shoots soon. Personally, I'd allow them all to take off and keep the tree healthy, before you start to reduce to the next stage again.
Rory
I style Bonsai naturally, just as they would appear in the wild.
Central Coast, NSW
Bonsai: Casuarina Leptospermum Banksia Phebalium Baeckea Melalueca Ficus

Growing Australian natives as Bonsai: viewtopic.php?p=289480#p289480

Buying and repotting Native nursery material: viewtopic.php?f=78&t=30724

Growing tips for Casuarina as Bonsai: viewtopic.php?p=244995#p244995

How to reduce moss from the trunk without damaging the bark: viewtopic.php?p=295227#p295227
Patmet
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 300
Joined: March 31st, 2019, 8:21 am
Favorite Species: WA natives
Bonsai Age: 5
Bonsai Club: Albany Bonsai Collective, Bonsai Society of Western Australia
Location: Albany, Western Australia
Has thanked: 360 times
Been thanked: 479 times
Contact:

Re: Western Australian Casuarina+Allocasuarina

Post by Patmet »

Rory wrote: November 15th, 2023, 8:30 am Looking good there bud.

Just take note though, as you now have a Casy with basically no foliage, with a decent sized pot.
The tree will not be pulling much water out of that mix for a long time now. So just be careful again with watering.
It will drastically reduce how much water it needs to be given. :beer:

I used to have no qualms reducing casys like you have, but now I subscribe to the school of 'healthy hair'....I prefer to cut back natives in stages, rather than a massive reduction of foliage in one go.

You should see a mass of new shoots soon. Personally, I'd allow them all to take off and keep the tree healthy, before you start to reduce to the next stage again.
Thanks mate, I'll be sure to be careful with the watering now. I was actually thinking about repotting this into a wider shallower pot once the new shoots get going again. A stepping stone from this tall pot to a bonsai pot. It hasn't been repotted for a good couple of years so I think it might be a good time to sort the roots out.
Patmet
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 300
Joined: March 31st, 2019, 8:21 am
Favorite Species: WA natives
Bonsai Age: 5
Bonsai Club: Albany Bonsai Collective, Bonsai Society of Western Australia
Location: Albany, Western Australia
Has thanked: 360 times
Been thanked: 479 times
Contact:

Re: Western Australian Casuarina+Allocasuarina

Post by Patmet »

Allocasuarina Humilis got some branch selection and wiring late December 2023, and then repot into something shallower mid Feb. It's started to develop an interesting base that has a bit of character since the last potting.
20231226_184541_1.jpg
December before wire and branch selection
20231227_130705_1.jpg
After
20240224_143736_1.jpg
20240224_143730_1.jpg
Root reduction at repotting Feb 2024

20240314_173744_1.jpg
20240314_173753_1.jpg
March 2024
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Post Reply

Return to “Casuarina and Alocasuarina”