How Tough/Resilient are Casuarina?

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How Tough/Resilient are Casuarina?

Post by Watto »

I am currently in the process of potting a few yamadori casuarinas and when I pull one out of its pot I was most surprised to see a small growth coming from a root. It was a bit pale in colour probably because it was living in a black plastic pot but nevertheless it was fascinating.
I have concluded that these will grow from root cuttings, and they are tough!
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Re: How Tough/Resilient are Casuarina?

Post by Redsonic »

Wow, I would never have expected that! In my (limited) experience of Casuarina, species differences really effect their budding. I have lost A. littoralis from chopping below green.
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Re: How Tough/Resilient are Casuarina?

Post by Ryceman3 »

Redsonic wrote: November 24th, 2021, 11:55 am Wow, I would never have expected that! In my (limited) experience of Casuarina, species differences really effect their budding. I have lost A. littoralis from chopping below green.
Mmmm ... thats interesting. I have trunk chopped A. Littoralis with no issues, got plenty of new shoots. I will say though these were reasonably young, healthy trees (under 3 or so years) so maybe there is a factor with age? They sent out buds/shoots within a week or two of the chops. I've done it both in mid-late spring and also early autumn with the same results. Like with everything in bonsai - it probably just depends!!
That "underground" shoot is next level Watto ... :o
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Re: How Tough/Resilient are Casuarina?

Post by GavinG »

In the "wilds" of Canberra streets you can see suckers growing around A/Casuarinas - I suspect many of the creek-side clumps are also sucker-groups. They seem to be strong, particularly when young, and take cutting back quite well (although old stock can be a bit hit-and-miss) but DIE HORRIBLY, IMMEDIATELY, TOTALLY, COMPLETELY, FOR EVER MORE, if they dry out at all. Which, for someone a bit slack, is not good. I'm thinking about water trays for high summer, when they get to bonsai pots.

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Re: How Tough/Resilient are Casuarina?

Post by Raging Bull »

Yes they sucker quite easily. I've dug a couple from near a boat ramp in the Tweed River that were growing a couple of metres from an ever-expanding patch . To my surprise the two were connected and growing from a long root coming from the main group of trees. They were growing in sand on a small beach and every time there is a "significant rain event" here the river floods and they are inundated to a depth of about half a meter with brackish water.
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Re: How Tough/Resilient are Casuarina?

Post by shibui »

I have also never had any problem with new shoots on Cas chopped below the green. Usually lots of new shoots as a result. Not sure what happened to the one that Redsonic chopped but it appears to be another lesson not to draw hard conclusions from just one event.

I've also discovered that many 'seedlings' growing near a larger tree are actually root suckers so it appears common for at least some species to grow from roots.
So far I have not had any produce suckers in pots.
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Re: How Tough/Resilient are Casuarina?

Post by Rory »

Casurinas wrote the book on suckers. They have perfected the art. As Gavin and Neil state, they are renowned for it.
You can see the suckers everywhere, particularly in groves.

As far as trunk chopping Casurinas go, if they are in great health, you shouldn’t ever have a problem.
The only exception to this rule is Casuarina nana. It can be temperamental and ironically is best to leave trunk chopping until it’s older and established, and even then is best to trunk chip in stages to reduce significant vein death.
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Re: How Tough/Resilient are Casuarina?

Post by melbrackstone »

Redsonic wrote: November 24th, 2021, 11:55 am Wow, I would never have expected that! In my (limited) experience of Casuarina, species differences really effect their budding. I have lost A. littoralis from chopping below green.
Could be a Qld thing? I lost one in the same manner, and have never chopped below the green since...

Nice to know that root cuttings could be a go though, cheers Watto. And love your contribution regarding letting them dry out Gavin!

On that note, do you all grow them in "wetter" mixes, or just make sure they're watered well if they're in open mix?
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Re: How Tough/Resilient are Casuarina?

Post by Rory »

melbrackstone wrote: November 25th, 2021, 7:44 am
Redsonic wrote: November 24th, 2021, 11:55 am Wow, I would never have expected that! In my (limited) experience of Casuarina, species differences really effect their budding. I have lost A. littoralis from chopping below green.
Could be a Qld thing? I lost one in the same manner, and have never chopped below the green since...

Nice to know that root cuttings could be a go though, cheers Watto. And love your contribution regarding letting them dry out Gavin!

On that note, do you all grow them in "wetter" mixes, or just make sure they're watered well if they're in open mix?
If you have full sun 24/7 then you would be wise to have a heavier mix to stop the rapid drying out.
On a side note, if the roots are overgrown, its not getting adequate take up as water may not be getting to all areas of the roots.
Once they are bone dry, its usually fatal.
One problem people have, is that they are told Casuarinas are incredibly thirsty - which is true - but then they over-water the bejesus out of them and keep them permanently damp, which usually starts to decline the health.

I also grow them with a bit of insurance. By that I mean if I'm going away for a weekend or so, I will trim a fair bit of the foliage off, thus reducing the amount of water it needs, especially if they are drying out by the end of the day.
I grow mine in deep mixes so they have plenty of water storage at the bottom in case its needed. Also, the bottom layer I do not use rocks like some people do, and just have the mix the entire way down to give the bottom area more chance of water in case of a super hot day.

If they are bonsai quality and not in the training stage, I would recommend a deeper bonsai pot and none of these stupid fancy thin bonsai pots which have always been the rage, but for Australian conditions its basically a ceramic coffin.
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Re: How Tough/Resilient are Casuarina?

Post by SquatJar »

I seem to remember reading in an allo/casuarina ID key that suckering is one of the keys. I can personally confirm casuarina glauca and allocasurina torulosa sucker prolifically and also bud like mad through old bark if cut hard.

Shallow pots and lack of water is a myth, for the same volume a thinner pot holds more water, just do the wet sponge experiment to see for yourself, for that matter a larger particle 'drainage' layer can also increase a pots water holding capacity by raising the saturation layer in the normal size mix above
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Re: How Tough/Resilient are Casuarina?

Post by Ryceman3 »

melbrackstone wrote: November 25th, 2021, 7:44 am On that note, do you all grow them in "wetter" mixes, or just make sure they're watered well if they're in open mix?
I use pretty much the same mix for all my trees, which essentially means that thirsty ones require more water. I find natives in general to be thirsty (I can't think of a native species I grow that isn't), but I would say that on a native scale of "thirstiness", sheoaks aren't all that high up. Melaleucas in general and Leptospermum species I have for example I find to be MUCH more water "needy" than allocasuarina. Having said all that, I wouldn't let them dry out ... but I would say that about all trees whether native or exotic. Any tree in a container that is left to truly dry out is going to struggle/die.
As you can see from my amazing scientific lexicon (as illustrated above), my conclusions are pretty anecdotal at best so take that however you like Mel ... I think they would be fine to grow in any bonsai mix without drying out any more than any other species of tree.
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Re: How Tough/Resilient are Casuarina?

Post by Rory »

Ryceman3 wrote: November 25th, 2021, 10:46 am
melbrackstone wrote: November 25th, 2021, 7:44 am On that note, do you all grow them in "wetter" mixes, or just make sure they're watered well if they're in open mix?
Melaleucas in general and Leptospermum species I have for example I find to be MUCH more water "needy" than allocasuarina.
Thats very interesting. All the Mels I have grown are nowhere near as thirsty as Casuarinas. Are you sure you're not baseing this off of those shohin casuarina that you grow :), as they would not require much water with the very small amount of foliage you have on those.
SquatJar wrote: November 25th, 2021, 9:50 am Shallow pots and lack of water is a myth, for the same volume a thinner pot holds more water, just do the wet sponge experiment to see for yourself, for that matter a larger particle 'drainage' layer can also increase a pots water holding capacity by raising the saturation layer in the normal size mix above
I beg to differ. I understand what you're saying, but experience says otherwise for me. On a 40+ day, the heat that will dry out the mix in very flat and shallow pots is always worse than for a deeper, thicker pot. A sponge is not going to be under the same conditions as mix in a pot with varying influences. Anyone that grows mame bonsai, will usually place them into a tray of water on a day that is going to be subject to extreme heat and wind. The displacement of the area when wind hits shallow pots is going to make it far worse than for a deeper pot with the same displacement.
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Re: How Tough/Resilient are Casuarina?

Post by Ryceman3 »

Rory wrote: November 25th, 2021, 11:25 am
Ryceman3 wrote: November 25th, 2021, 10:46 am
melbrackstone wrote: November 25th, 2021, 7:44 am On that note, do you all grow them in "wetter" mixes, or just make sure they're watered well if they're in open mix?
Melaleucas in general and Leptospermum species I have for example I find to be MUCH more water "needy" than allocasuarina.
Thats very interesting. All the Mels I have grown are nowhere near as thirsty as Casuarinas. Are you sure you're not baseing this off of those shohin casuarina that you grow :), as they would not require much water with the very small amount of foliage you have on those.
I am 100% positive I am basing it on shohins (and slightly larger) because that's all I really grow... however my Mels and Leptos are also of the same scale so I guess that still leaves me comparing apples with apples?
A. Littoralis I have compared to Mels and Leptos in similar sized pots with a similar foliage mass sitting next to each other are definitely less thirsty, just my experience as I have been growing them. As an example, I will have the others on water trays and just leave the Casuarina without issue on a moderately hot day. I'm not saying anything definitive ... just my experience, I don't doubt this may vary for others.
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Re: How Tough/Resilient are Casuarina?

Post by dansai »

I have a few species of Leptospermum that once they have dried out its all over. Others can come back. Most Mels I have grown may sulk for a while if dried out, but will resprout weeks, maybe months later, and can be kept in a water tray or wet in the meantime. But once a Casuarina has dried out fully its just dead. Lost a few that way. And as Rory mentions, warm windy days just sucks that moisture out of the pot. And usually by the time you have seen the signs its all over.

As to shallow pots, I have to agree with Rory too. Its fine if you water them regularly which is not always possible if you are at work during the day. Saying that, I have a cascade juniper in a tall pot that needs water far more often than one I have in a much smaller and shallowish pot.

As for Casuarina sending up suckers, I would definitely agree with many comments so far. I grew up in an area where Casuarina was the main tree species present. Roots would rise above the grass and when scalped with a lawn mower would send up many shoots. My first ever dig was a bit of casuarina root that had a couple of shoots from my parents front yard. It grew well for quite a few months and then just died. I now assume it probably dried out, I have never tried to grow from root cutting though. Would be interesting to know if it is possible.
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Re: How Tough/Resilient are Casuarina?

Post by shibui »

Shallow pots and lack of water is a myth, for the same volume a thinner pot holds more water, just do the wet sponge experiment to see for yourself, for that matter a larger particle 'drainage' layer can also increase a pots water holding capacity by raising the saturation layer in the normal size mix above
A given soil will hold the same depth of residual water no matter what shape the pot is. A shallow pot that's the same width as a taller pot still has the same water table. However that's not the end of the water story. Water also adheres to each particle and is stored between particles and even soaks into some porous soil particles so total water is also related to pot volume.

For pots of the same volume - ie a deeper pot V a wider shallow one. There will be more water in the water table in the wider shallow pot given the same depth of water table. The same volume of potting mix should hold the same number of particles so a similar amount of stored water in the mix but the much larger surface area of the wider, shallow pot evaporates more water than the deeper pot leading to faster losses during a hot day. Just how that will balance against the extra perched water will depend on the depth of that water table and therefore how much extra the wider pot has to start with.

For the same diameter pot a deeper one will hold much more water simply because the pot has a greater volume so there are far more particles in the pot to hold drops of water.
Most nurseries select pots according to volume but in bonsai we tend to select a pot based on the width to 'balance' the height and width of our trees. This means that a 'shallow' pot for any given tree will almost always have less volume than a 'deeper' pot selected for the same tree - both pots are likely to have the same width to balance the bonsai. This means that for most practical bonsai purposes a shallow pot will have less volume than a deeper pot for any given tree and therefore hold less water in between the soil particles and will therefore start the day with less overall water.

My trees have done far better through summer since moving to deeper pots.
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