Will it back bud?

A place to post and chat about Australian native species as Bonsai.
Phil Rabl
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 163
Joined: June 24th, 2013, 2:58 pm
Bonsai Age: 20
Bonsai Club: Canberra, Ballarat, VNBC
Location: Ballarat
Has thanked: 30 times
Been thanked: 134 times

Re: Will it back bud?

Post by Phil Rabl »

In 2013, Peter Hanrahan posted this story of his major chop on his award winning E Nicholii viewtopic.php?f=78&t=16986
shibui
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 7653
Joined: August 22nd, 2009, 8:41 pm
Favorite Species: trident maple
Bonsai Age: 41
Bonsai Club: Albury/Wodonga; BSV; Canberra; VNBC
Location: Yackandandah
Has thanked: 65 times
Been thanked: 1399 times
Contact:

Re: Will it back bud?

Post by shibui »

Callistemon in general seem to cope fine with chops but I'm not certain of specific species. Callistemon as a genus is a bit fuzzy anyway.
The ANBG still recognizes Callistemon as a genus but some others have put all Callistemon into Melaleuca so all previous callistemon are now officially Melaleucas with the previous species name. C. viminalis = Melaeuca viminalis, etc. I'm still happy to refer to these as Callistemons until the botanists come to a definite agreement.

I found one callistemon that did not back bud on the trunk after a chop and transplant but it did sucker from the base and roots afterward - not much use for a bonsai chop back though. Not certain of the species but probably Callistemon brachyandrus. It has thin needle like leaves and red flowers with gold tips.
http://shibuibonsai.com.au/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
User avatar
treeman
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 2836
Joined: August 15th, 2011, 4:47 pm
Favorite Species: any
Bonsai Age: 25
Location: melbourne
Has thanked: 28 times
Been thanked: 571 times

Re: Will it back bud?

Post by treeman »

shibui wrote: November 28th, 2021, 8:06 pm

If anyone else has records of trials on hard chopping Aussie natives feel free to add so we can keep the info in one location.
lanigerum - no problem
gradiflorum - don't know
aphrodite - I think so but not very satisfactory from memory
scoparium - same
linariifolia - sometimes. Does not like it in my exp.
stypheliodes - no problem.
viminalis - no probs
halmaturorum - definitely not
nesophylla - definitely not
laevigatum - only on vigorous young wood - can't rely on it.
integrifolia - no problem
petersonii - yes
Jervis Bay (rotundifolia) - yes
cuticularis - yes
marginata - no probs
Lept sericeum - yes
raphiophylla - yes
serrata - yes
Trist. laurina - yes
armillaris - no
Kun baxteri - yes but weak
Kunz pullchella - yes but very slow.
Mike
User avatar
Ryceman3
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 2595
Joined: October 19th, 2014, 10:39 am
Favorite Species: Pines & Mels
Bonsai Age: 7
Location: Melbourne
Has thanked: 1041 times
Been thanked: 1535 times

Re: Will it back bud?

Post by Ryceman3 »

treeman wrote: December 1st, 2021, 2:52 pm linariifolia - sometimes. Does not like it in my exp.
Thanks for your experiences… I’ve not grown enough to know definitively but the one that surprised me from your list was M. Linariifolia. I don’t seem to have any issues but having said that all the trees I have are young (5-6 yrs old or younger).
The rest of your list either affirmed my own thoughts or were for species I don’t have dealings with and so defer to your experience without issue. Always nice to know what you’re in for so appreciate the input. Forewarned is forearmed!
:beer:
User avatar
Rory
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 2807
Joined: January 23rd, 2013, 11:19 pm
Favorite Species: Baeckea Phebalium Casuarina & Banksia
Bonsai Age: 24
Location: Central Coast, NSW
Has thanked: 22 times
Been thanked: 456 times

Re: Will it back bud?

Post by Rory »

There are going to be massive discrepancies here about what is considered back-budding.

Back-budding as Shibui is trialling, is from a hard cut-back with presumably no foliage remaining.
Now... back-budding in general can just be new buds that appear near the lower parts of the trunk naturally.
But to encourage back-budding on older material is also relative to your interpretation of 'old wood'.

There are many varieties of natives that are considered prolific at back-budding after a cut-back yes, but a lot of these prolific back-budding varieties are very hard to encourage the new buds to form way down low without a heavy trunk-chop. For instance, lets take a commonly known 'back-budder' of Banksia integrifolia. Yes it will back-bud fantastically, but it will not normally back bud down lower on the trunk on old wood (over 10 years) on the lower trunk areas. It usually back-buds to about 5-7cm or so back from the cut without fail. However, if you are wanting new shoots to form much lower down on the trunk, you usually would need to do a trunk-chop to get new shoots down low on B. integrifolia. And obviously a complete trunk chop is a disaster if you want new shoots to appear down low without losing the main branch structure.

The same can be said of the well known Moreton Bay Fig and almost the same with PJ figs. It is a prolific back-budder, but again only back from about 10cm back from the cut area. Without doing a massive trunk chop, it can be near impossible to encourage new shoots way down on the trunk without doing this.

Of course this is not a rule, and you do get the occasional random new shoots forming, but I have not had such luck on much older wood without trunk chopping on all my natives.

My recommendation is to simply cut back continuously on the material when it is young. When it is over 5-10 years old on most material, you'll struggle getting branches down low without seriously losing a lot of the branch structure from an actual trunk chop.

Ironically, a few comments here are that Leptospermum scoparium is not good at back budding, or temperamental. More recently over the years I have found the exact opposite. To maintain better health, as long as you leave about half of the foliage on and do not touch the roots, you will get prolific back budding... and on older wood every time.
It is the combination of root work together with branch reduction that will promote death with L. scoparium.

So yes, I generally leave about half the foliage on all my material these days, and cut-back hard into the other half to promote back-buddng. But for even commonly hardy material, it can be an impossible task to get new shoots low on the trunk without doing a massive trunk chop.

So take advice if you are new, or have young material. Continously cut back every year to get movement and a lot of branches. As the material is older, you will be rewarded with a lot more branches to experiment with, rather than a barren trunk and a heap of branches up top.

But I am yet to discover the golden answer of how to get new shoots down low on old material without trunk chopping.
'
In regards to Melalueca linarifolia, it naturally does not produce new buds down low on older wood. I have cut-back hard and always get new growth to appear from about 5cm back from the cut. I have struggled to get new growth to appear much lower down on the trunk without a massive trunk chop. With Melaleuca linarifolia as long as the material is in excellent health, I've always got new shoots appearing after a drastic trunk chop. But it is not desirable if you want to keep the branch structure. :palm:
Rory
I style Bonsai naturally, just as they would appear in the wild.
Central Coast, NSW
Bonsai: Casuarina Leptospermum Banksia Phebalium Baeckea Melalueca Ficus

Growing Australian natives as Bonsai: viewtopic.php?p=289480#p289480

Buying and repotting Native nursery material: viewtopic.php?f=78&t=30724

Growing tips for Casuarina as Bonsai: viewtopic.php?p=244995#p244995

How to reduce moss from the trunk without damaging the bark: viewtopic.php?p=295227#p295227
shibui
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 7653
Joined: August 22nd, 2009, 8:41 pm
Favorite Species: trident maple
Bonsai Age: 41
Bonsai Club: Albury/Wodonga; BSV; Canberra; VNBC
Location: Yackandandah
Has thanked: 65 times
Been thanked: 1399 times
Contact:

Re: Will it back bud?

Post by shibui »

An update on some of the trees I have chopped back hard this spring/summer:
IMGP6037.JPG
Melaleuca linariifolia? Plenty of new shoots from tips of branches and from further down the trunk. I have rubbed off some that are emerging from inconvenient places.
IMGP6038.JPG
Leptospermum grandifolium - new buds but all from the ends of branches so far.
IMGP6039.JPG
IMGP6040.JPG
IMGP6041.JPG
Euc sp. This one could be red box or mountain swamp gum (both have similar shaped leaves)
IMGP6042.JPG
Plenty of new epicormic shoots on the trunk
IMGP6043.JPG
and from the lignotuber.
IMGP6044.JPG
I don't want the lower shoots to compete with the new ones on the trunk so I've rubbed them off.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
http://shibuibonsai.com.au/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Watto
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 3939
Joined: July 6th, 2009, 8:17 am
Favorite Species: Plum
Bonsai Age: 0
Bonsai Club: Goulburn Bonsai Society
Location: Goulburn
Has thanked: 509 times
Been thanked: 1096 times

Re: Will it back bud?

Post by Watto »

Thanks for the update, very interesting.
PS - I like that a Lepto has budded a Japanese maple!!!
Check out my blog at http://www.ausbonsai.com.au/blog/Watto" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
shibui
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 7653
Joined: August 22nd, 2009, 8:41 pm
Favorite Species: trident maple
Bonsai Age: 41
Bonsai Club: Albury/Wodonga; BSV; Canberra; VNBC
Location: Yackandandah
Has thanked: 65 times
Been thanked: 1399 times
Contact:

Re: Will it back bud?

Post by shibui »

PS - I like that a Lepto has budded a Japanese maple!!!
Thought I must have included a stray photo :lost:
On checking I see there's one of the ubiquitous self sown seedlings in the pot. Comes of having mature trees in the garden around the nursery. Many pots have more than one because I feel bad pulling them out and throwing them away :(
Lots of customers know that Shibui Bonsai trees often come with one or more bonus seedlings.......
http://shibuibonsai.com.au/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Post Reply

Return to “Australian Native Species”