How long will our natives live ?

[craigw60]

I suspect this is something we will all find out in time but what prompted me to ask this question is an acacia cognata which is one of Ians trees I have. It would be around the 25-30yr mark and has for the last 5 years been gradually loosing branches and developing dead patches moving down the trunk. i know that acacia is a short lived genus but thought maybe as bonsai they may last a little longer. Anyone else had this experience ?

[Bretts]

It is an accepted theory that trees live longer as Bonsai. In fact some say they will live forever.
Has there ever been a proven instance of a bonsai dieing from old age Even a short lived tree?

I would love to hear any explanations on why Bonsai trees live longer than natural trees

I have an idea (just a theory) on how to save the tree Craig but maybe we should explore the question a bit more first
Can you tell us a bit of history of the tree. What pots it has been in when last root prune,top prune and basic care that it is undergoing.

[Jamie]

what i understand of trees in nature is they basically outgrow themselves where the upper part of the tree grows more than the root system and the tree cant sustain anymore foliage and eventually dies off. i think that is it basically in a nutshell, as to why bonsai are supposed to live longer and not die i beleive the theory behind this is that they are constantly getting pruned both foliage/branches and the root system forcing the tree to create a new root system and new foliage every so many years, so technically bonsai should live longer even if the species is a short lived genus category as it should never get to the stage where one part out grows the other.
but then you have to put in other factors with a trees life, but thats not what the question was!

hope this helped a little, i am keen to know if that is correct actually to


jamie

[dayne]

ive had a few trees die from old age well thats my opinion

[Jamie]

ive had a few trees die from old age well thats my opinion

same...

[Bretts]

That's how it was explained to me Jamie.
Theoretically with the root and branch pruning the bonsai never gets to the size where it outgrows itself. So theoretically a bonsai can live forever with the right care.
I have a little trouble accepting that a large old tree just dies from out growing itself though. My thinking is that the tree would only die off at the top and put new shoots out closer to the ground maybe there are other factors involved?

I think there are many reasons an old bonsai can die apart from old age. I was watching an old movie of the AABC convention and it was mentioned that a tree can suffer root rot(especially fast growing trees) if you don't allow the roots to grow. To allow the roots to grow you must let the tree grow out.

It is said that orchard trees lose vigor after about 10 years I think. You can uproot them and give them a root and branch prune and they could go another 10 but it is some how more viable to just rip them up and plant new trees. I have seen a technique of chopping the old tree right back to a stump and grafting new stock on top which allows the orchard to also grow new varieties on established root systems. This is a contradiction of the need for root pruning though?

[craigw60]

I think that with the correct root pruning technique you are maintaining a plant which has basically only feeder roots this is why bonsai live so long. With regards to my acacia I potted it a couple of months ago and what remains of the plant is very healthy but who knows what the future will bring as far as a bonsai goes it doesn't have much style any more. I will post a photo of it soon. I have a big plant fair this weekend so won't be until early next week.
Craig

[Bretts]

I think that with the correct root pruning technique you are maintaining a plant which has basically only feeder roots this is why bonsai live so long

Ok but why does only having feeder roots make the tree live longer.

To work out if this is age or another reason we really need to dissect what is going on with the tree. A picture is great but my first question is has it been allowed to grow freely often enough? Are the tips constantly tipped.
How big is it. How much has it grown in the last 7 years(as you say vigor loss was apparent 5 years ago). How much space is being given for the roots to regrow.

Obviously all of this is pointing towards whether the tree has been allowed to grow freely. I have heard that putting a tree back out in the ground for a bit helps but I think the same can be accomplished in a pot.

Maybe it is time to let it grow freely for a couple of years with room for the roots to grow and then a hard prune and restyle?

As this is relatively new ground for the acacia it seems to me that all possibilities must be explored before it is accepted it is old age. I think there are ones around (acacia) just as old that are going strong.
How old is Ray's now? I think it was 25 years old a few years ago!

[anttal63]

I think that with the correct root pruning technique you are maintaining a plant which has basically only feeder roots this is why bonsai live so long. With regards to my acacia I potted it a couple of months ago and what remains of the plant is very healthy but who knows what the future will bring as far as a bonsai goes it doesn't have much style any more. I will post a photo of it soon. I have a big plant fair this weekend so won't be until early next week.
Craig

Craig have you ever bare rooted the tree and freed up its roots of all old soil???

[EdwardH]

I've heard the theory as well that as bonsai trees will live forever. I don't believe that it is true. I believe that due to the extra care a bonsai tree receives that it's normal life span can be extended somewhat - but thats about it. People used to have an average life span of 60 - 70 yet now regularly live 80 plus (with a lot of medications for some). It is the same for our trees. We fertalize, water, erradicate pests and even speak lovingly to them (OK I am a little strange ) so they often live longer than under natural conditions.

There have reports about some trees which have estimated ages of around 3-4 thousand years. A few mallees in WA, some Allepo pines in Italy and some pines in the USA. I don't know if the ages are accurate I do know that some plants have very short lifespans (annuals) while others live many hundreds of years. I can only suggest that when growing naturally short lived trees like Acacias that you train them quickly and enjoy them whilst they last. I do not see any benefit in trying to get a tree that has a life expectancy of 30 years to live 80 years. It just won't happen.

Then again we could open a home for old bonsai and entertain them with walks (carries?) in the park and listen to their stories of when they were just a little seedling and a nice person came and planted them into a pot and started to lovingly care for them.

[MattA]

We fertalize, water, erradicate pests and even speak lovingly to them (OK I am a little strange ) so they often live longer than under natural conditions.

I sometimes torture & abuse my trees & that seems to work just as much as loving conversation, in some cases it actually works better. Fear is a great motivator to get the go on, i have a really sharp tomahawk & its one of my favorite tools to use on my trees

[Bretts]

I do not see any benefit in trying to get a tree that has a life expectancy of 30 years to live 80 years.

It has a life span of about 10–15 years I don't think just good care can account for doubling and trippling the life span of a tree. Living in a pot is more stressfull than the ground.

[Bretts]

I think a combination of this

To live long, a tree must stay small.

Old age is not the problem for plants that it is for animals. Being modular, plants can grow new limbs when old ones die off. More crucial to the longevity of a tree is its size. A tree reaches a stage when it cannot get taller, owing mainly to the difficulties of bringing water up from the roots, and when its side branches cannot grow longer, because they are too expensive to support. So the number of leaves a tree holds becomes more or less fixed, and this means that the tree's ability to produce food--the sugar made in leaves by photosynthesis--also levels off.

Yet each year the tree adds a new layer of wood under the bark, and the amount of wood needed to coat the whole tree increases, just as, in a set of Russian dolls, each new doll on the outside has to be bigger. As the tree grows, the amount of food needed for running it rises. The tree resembles a bank account whose income (sugary food) is fixed but whose outgo (respiration and new wood) keeps mounting. The tree compensates for a time by producing narrower and narrower rings, but there comes a point when a ring cannot get any narrower. Something has to give, usually the water-deprived top most branches. The result is a stag-headed tree, so named for the antlerlike dead branches sticking out of the top. A downward spiral begins: the loss of branches means fewer leaves, and fewer leaves means less new wood.

But many trees can slow the process. Some have buds in the trunk that sprout new branches. These may hold enough leaves to make up for those lost higher up, so the tree can keep the leaf area constant while cutting out the expensive-to-maintain upper trunk and its big branches.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... _62324488/

and this is pretty close to what the reasons are.

Some plants are naturally short lived......we are talking just trees here....let's not get into annual, biennial, perennial differences.

After a forest fire Mother Nature repairs the damage with quick growing plants......first the forbs (little leafy things) and then shrubs and trees. These first trees are fast growing as they have a job to do, but sacrifice long lift to grow so fast. As a result they also die out quickly but not until the slower growing and longer lived plants have a start under the protective canopy of the nurse plants.

The die out quickly because they lack the ability to ward off disease. I'll explain below. Longer lived trees have the ability to contain disease. Let's leave it at that. This isn't an epistle.

In woody plants.......trees........a plant is under constant assault from fires, insects......and Boy Scouts with hatchets. Each wound in a tree is compartmentalized.......not healed.....but rather isolated by chemical barrier walls within the plant to contain disease development or spread. New wood grows over the wound and we say "healed" but the wound is always there. This comparmentalization takes energy to maintain 24/7/365. The more wounds, the more compartments, the more energy drain on the plant.

Plants "run" on battery power....mostly. That is the plants store energy made by those leaves and then use the energy on a whole host of activities going on even when leaves are absent: new root initiation, flower bud development, leaf bud development, respiration, seed maturation, etc etc and keeping those barrier walls operating. If a plant can not make and store enough energy then systems begin to fail...maybe it won't flower well, maybe growth is limited........maybe the barrier walls begin to fail allowing disease to spread within the plant, destroying more energy with wood cells.

So woody plants basically die of lack of energy.....their batteries are drained and can not recover.

http://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/in ... 147AA85xmy

[Jamie]

i seen those quotes aswell brett, i did a little research myself

obviously there are other factors to why a tree dies, now whether that is old age that makes it more of a chance of dieing or not, a young plant can die just as easy through sickness etc.

it comes down to the care that we provide for them, look at the trees by kimura, they have been collected from mountains and are claimed to be a thousand years old? yet in bonsai training for 50-60 years? doesnt this say something? although the tree was in the ground for so long in the mountains it sstill had to fight pest, disease and weather, than it had to go through the stress of being taken out of the ground and put in a pot, now it receives the pot culture we put on our trees. i am not comparing our trees to Kimura either, just using it as an example!

the article you seen on fruit trees i also seen, i think it needs to be stated that the grafted stock doesnt use the root stock it is grafted to its whole life, eventually it takes over the root stock and plunges roots of its own into the soil. this is then left to grow for so long and the season before it is removed they will ring bark the whole trunk in order for it to have a push of massive, sweet fruit and make a heap of money from it. that goes to show the tenacity of trees as they will continue to grow even after a ring bark by bridging the gap and continuing to grow, they will then be grown for one more year or have the graft process repeated.

now as far as i can see if we are constantly maintaining a tree and control how and why it grows like it does techniqually the appearance of the tree on the outside should look aged but underneath should be like a fresh tree, in the quote you put up mate i think it states about how many wounds a tree has and how it fixes the problem, it should not be an issue in bonsai culture as the tree should be growing faster than it can deteriorate even in pot culture.

i think i have rambled enough for now

jamie

[Bretts]

Didn't see anything about the scion taking over on the roots? Just a standard graft but the root stock was massive compared to the scion.

I think this is a great lesson on bonsai cultivation. As you say Jamie the tree will survive as long as it has vigor. When I saw the explanation of every cut causes damage(disease) I thought that he must be wrong as why do Bonsai live longer when they are always being cut. The answer as you say is the energy of the tree. As long as you are able to keep the energy equation running the tree will live.
I think it goes a long way to understanding why we often see Eastern practitioners wearing white gloves and working in sterile conditions. They have more experience with aged trees than us.
I think this is a question that many Westerners have not got to yet as our collections are still young.
I remember a member of a Forum years ago miserising over very old trees that just did not come out of dormancy. There was no obvious reason.
There was talk off putting trees back out in the ground to increase vigor. The main thing anyway seems to be to enable the tree to continue growing to store energy before cutting it back down and arranging branches so that the tree can produce enough leaves to supply the energy to grow while storing some for later. It is not just a matter of trimming the roots to allow room to grow. The top must also be allowed to grow otherwise the roots won't either.
I don't think there is any finite life span on a tree it is just that as they get older the equation is much more complicated.

This includes our Aussie natives. In fact it seems now we are getting to the age in some Aussie collections where this must be given great thought.
To think that my trees could live on for a few thousand years is thrilling. It blows my mind and gives the work new meaning to understand that they could live forever