How to grow good bonsai stock like the Japanese nurseries

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Jarad
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Re: How to grow good bonsai stock like the Japanese nurseries

Post by Jarad »

After seeing this post I decided to give it a go with a couple of young shimpaku junis (see below). I was a little enthusiastic with some of the bending (they were dead straight) and a couple of places no longer have branches.

Should I be bending these guys more?
Shimpaku Juniper 01 - Front.jpg
Shimpaku Juniper 02 - Front.jpg
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Re: How to grow good bonsai stock like the Japanese nurseries

Post by kcpoole »

Jarad wrote: Should I be bending these guys more?
the first one yep I reckon

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Re: How to grow good bonsai stock like the Japanese nurseries

Post by Daluke »

Jarad, I too was inspired by this thread and have bent a few recently.

I found it easier putting extreme bends in my trunks (which look a bit thicker) using a lot more wire than you have.

I also got told to make your trunk go north, south, east and west (that is, make sure your trunk has segments than go every which direction).
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Re: How to grow good bonsai stock like the Japanese nurseries

Post by Jarad »

Thanks Ken, I'll jump on it this evening.
Daluke wrote: I found it easier putting extreme bends in my trunks (which look a bit thicker) using a lot more wire than you have.
I'll try throwing some more wire on and get them bent more.
Daluke wrote: I also got told to make your trunk go north, south, east and west (that is, make sure your trunk has segments than go every which direction).
Check out the below and let me know what you think. I believe the first one needs a little more work than the second.
(These were actually my first real attempt at doing some serious wiring).
Shimpaku Juniper 01 - Top.jpg
Shimpaku Juniper 02 - Top.jpg
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Re: How to grow good bonsai stock like the Japanese nurseries

Post by Elmar »

I don't know, mate! Your wiring technique needs work! :lol:

I really want to have a crack at this! Unfortunately Junis won't survive in Hedland ... Wonder if this will work with a native? I have an almost dead-straight Mel. Bracteata ... just don't know if it'll have the same effect :?:

I also like it when they strip the bark on opposite sides of the tree to give an eventual flat trunk ...
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Re: How to grow good bonsai stock like the Japanese nurseries

Post by Daluke »

Good start Jarad. I think another hard bend/twist should go into the trunk between the existing first bend and the first branch.

Something else I'll add is I've gone hard(er) on junipers and had them recover quickly by placing them in FULL sun as opposed to shade.
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Re: How to grow good bonsai stock like the Japanese nurseries

Post by Jarad »

CoGRedeMptioN wrote:I don't know, mate! Your wiring technique needs work! :lol:

I really want to have a crack at this! Unfortunately Junis won't survive in Hedland ... Wonder if this will work with a native? I have an almost dead-straight Mel. Bracteata ... just don't know if it'll have the same effect :?:

I also like it when they strip the bark on opposite sides of the tree to give an eventual flat trunk ...
:lol: you're a crack up Elmar.

Get a shade cloth. If Neli can grow them in Lusaka, you should be able to at least keep them alive in coastal WA.

That's my plan. I also decided my squamata had too much cambium, so I gave it a swirling shari, was my first go at that too. I would not recommend using a scalpel, the blade is too flexible.
Daluke wrote:Good start Jarad. I think another hard bend/twist should go into the trunk between the existing first bend and the first branch.

Something else I'll add is I've gone hard(er) on junipers and had them recover quickly by placing them in FULL sun as opposed to shade.
Thanks Daluke, I'll get on it when I have some time.

I've left them on my shelf in the sunniest part of my balcony, so they shouldn't miss a beat.
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Re: How to grow good bonsai stock like the Japanese nurseries

Post by Matt S »

Ok, I'm another one who's been inspired by this thread so along with trident76 I've bought half a dozen young junipers just for this purpose.
I'm intending for these to be small trees so I've really gone to town with the twisting and bending and kept them really compact. It's going to be many years before they'll be ready for styling but if I wanted a quick hobby I would have taken up knitting.
Here's the before and after of my first attempt. I started by twisting the whole tree a few turns before the bending.
1Juniper berfore 1.jpg
juniper after.jpg
juniper after 1.jpg
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Re: How to grow good bonsai stock like the Japanese nurseries

Post by Jow »

Its not just conifers that benefit from this technique. Deciduous, evergreen leaf trees and natives can also come up well as small twisted trees and often develop much more quickly.
IMG_2046.jpg
IMG_2047.jpg

It's the right time of year to start thinking about planting seed for next seasons stock. I am planting a handful of varieties to try and those interested should make preparations of their own for next season.

Another technique i am going to try this season which may cut down on some wiring time is the use of some sort of netting over the pot to create low bends.

http://jesuscuevasbonsai.blogspot.com.a ... ambre.html An interesting article and the rest of his blog is also worth a read.

We will see how it works out.

Joe
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Re: How to grow good bonsai stock like the Japanese nurseries

Post by MoGanic »

Jow wrote:Its not just conifers that benefit from this technique. Deciduous, evergreen leaf trees and natives can also come up well as small twisted trees and often develop much more quickly.
IMG_2046.jpg
IMG_2047.jpg

It's the right time of year to start thinking about planting seed for next seasons stock. I am planting a handful of varieties to try and those interested should make preparations of their own for next season.

Another technique i am going to try this season which may cut down on some wiring time is the use of some sort of netting over the pot to create low bends.

http://jesuscuevasbonsai.blogspot.com.a ... ambre.html An interesting article and the rest of his blog is also worth a read.

We will see how it works out.

Joe
Hey Joe,

I like the idea of netting, I know Tien has used it in the past on Trident seedlings and I've used it with what I think to be Kunzea (albeit on a much smaller scale) and the bends look much more natural and interesting. I think part of the difference is, when using a net (shade cloth in my case), the tree is forced to bend on it's own to try to reach light. Trees obviously don't secretly wire themselves in the middle of the night, so the way they bend is vastly different and produces different effects than anything we can achieve by hand. Pretty sure they multiply cells in certain areas (outside of a bend) and stop production of cells on the inside to create the bend.

Look forward to seeing this technique utilized!

Mo




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Re: How to grow good bonsai stock like the Japanese nurseries

Post by Jow »

MoGanic wrote:
Jow wrote:Its not just conifers that benefit from this technique. Deciduous, evergreen leaf trees and natives can also come up well as small twisted trees and often develop much more quickly.
IMG_2046.jpg
IMG_2047.jpg

It's the right time of year to start thinking about planting seed for next seasons stock. I am planting a handful of varieties to try and those interested should make preparations of their own for next season.

Another technique i am going to try this season which may cut down on some wiring time is the use of some sort of netting over the pot to create low bends.

http://jesuscuevasbonsai.blogspot.com.a ... ambre.html An interesting article and the rest of his blog is also worth a read.

We will see how it works out.

Joe
Hey Joe,

I like the idea of netting, I know Tien has used it in the past on Trident seedlings and I've used it with what I think to be Kunzea (albeit on a much smaller scale) and the bends look much more natural and interesting. I think part of the difference is, when using a net (shade cloth in my case), the tree is forced to bend on it's own to try to reach light. Trees obviously don't secretly wire themselves in the middle of the night, so the way they bend is vastly different and produces different effects than anything we can achieve by hand. Pretty sure they multiply cells in certain areas (outside of a bend) and stop production of cells on the inside to create the bend.

Look forward to seeing this technique utilized!

Mo




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If it can create good repeatable results it will help with scaling up stock growing operations. i would like to grow a few hundred seedlings a year but once i have been doing this over a number of years you can imagine the compounded wiring task each year. Hopefully the net may reduce this load somewhat even if it does just give the first bend.

Do you have any pictures of your kunzeas?
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Re: How to grow good bonsai stock like the Japanese nurseries

Post by MoGanic »

Jow wrote:
MoGanic wrote:
Jow wrote:Its not just conifers that benefit from this technique. Deciduous, evergreen leaf trees and natives can also come up well as small twisted trees and often develop much more quickly.
IMG_2046.jpg
IMG_2047.jpg

It's the right time of year to start thinking about planting seed for next seasons stock. I am planting a handful of varieties to try and those interested should make preparations of their own for next season.

Another technique i am going to try this season which may cut down on some wiring time is the use of some sort of netting over the pot to create low bends.

http://jesuscuevasbonsai.blogspot.com.a ... ambre.html An interesting article and the rest of his blog is also worth a read.

We will see how it works out.

Joe
Hey Joe,

I like the idea of netting, I know Tien has used it in the past on Trident seedlings and I've used it with what I think to be Kunzea (albeit on a much smaller scale) and the bends look much more natural and interesting. I think part of the difference is, when using a net (shade cloth in my case), the tree is forced to bend on it's own to try to reach light. Trees obviously don't secretly wire themselves in the middle of the night, so the way they bend is vastly different and produces different effects than anything we can achieve by hand. Pretty sure they multiply cells in certain areas (outside of a bend) and stop production of cells on the inside to create the bend.

Look forward to seeing this technique utilized!

Mo




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If it can create good repeatable results it will help with scaling up stock growing operations. i would like to grow a few hundred seedlings a year but once i have been doing this over a number of years you can imagine the compounded wiring task each year. Hopefully the net may reduce this load somewhat even if it does just give the first bend.

Do you have any pictures of your kunzeas?
They currently live at my folks house as my unit had enough space for my best trees and most of the stuff I'm growing on is still there.

Will try get pics next time I'm there!

Hopefully Tien can shoot a couple shots of Tridents he's worked on!

Mo


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Re: How to grow good bonsai stock like the Japanese nurseries

Post by Elmar »

MoGanic wrote:Trees obviously don't secretly wire themselves in the middle of the night, so the way they bend is vastly different and produces different effects than anything we can achieve by hand. Pretty sure they multiply cells in certain areas (outside of a bend) and stop production of cells on the inside to create the bend.
This process is called 'Phototropism' - first a chemical (or hormone if you like) is released on the opposite side to the sun light which elongates those cells (later they divide) while the remaining cells stay unchanged..

This process is somewhat different but aids the twisted growth ...


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Re: How to grow good bonsai stock like the Japanese nurseries

Post by Neli »

When I was at Gedemertas place He showed me how he wires trees and branches so they can be twisted to the extreme. I am sure many know this but just in case here it is:
# wires equally spaced between each other,
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Re: How to grow good bonsai stock like the Japanese nurseries

Post by bonsaisensation »

MoGanic wrote:
Hopefully Tien can shoot a couple shots of Tridents he's worked on!

Mo


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here you go Mo
IMG_0826a.jpg
IMG_0827.JPG
IMG_0831.JPG
IMG_0829.JPG
IMG_0835.JPG
as you can see, the netting method produced the initial couple of bends into the trunk without wiring. and that is about it.
to grow a good bonsai from them, still requires wiring the rest of the trunk, cutting back to back buds to produce taper then wire the new lead for movements.
it does save a lot of time wiring and unwiring the little seedlings, when you have to do hundreds of the them.

here are some desert ash
IMG_0834.JPG
IMG_0833.JPG
they are wired when they are match stick thickness. as you can see, it produced very similar result both netting and wiring.
i guess netting has a slight advantage as the seedlings can grow into rather unusual twist and bends on their own. and they are right down low on the trunk.

and what you are not seeing is the work done to the roots. i supposed they are what you'd called "trade secrets". :whistle: :whistle:


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