TREE HEIGHT

Share your success stories about defoliation, bare rooting and anything else relating to maintaining healthy bonsai.
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AJ.
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Re: TREE HEIGHT

Post by AJ. »

Ellen wrote:Would anyone who thinks the visual arts and literature have rules be game to suggest what they might be?
I before E except after C, and plenty more. Or if you're talking more specifically about writing books, there are rules such as not naming main characters with the same first letter, look at almost every show or book you read, almost certain they will all start with different letters, to help people remember, and to not confuse. Its a rule used in most literature, tho ignored by some like George R.R. Martin in series like A Song of Ice and Fire (A Game of Thrones)

Art has them also, they are about things like alignment, balance, colour schemes, etc.

The rules are there to teach people who know nothing, and to be broken by those who understand them the most. Without them tho, literature would just be a jumble of letters, art would just be scribble on a page, and bonsais would just be out of control trees.
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Re: TREE HEIGHT

Post by evenings »

Elements and principles of design.
http://www.johnlovett.com/test.htm

I guess they try to make sense of why some images are more appealing than others.
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Re: TREE HEIGHT

Post by Bretts »

Ellen wrote:Would anyone who thinks the visual arts and literature have rules be game to suggest what they might be?
In art they don't call them rules, that is the biggest issue here. People can't get past the fact that we call them rules and yes it is a silly word for design principles in bonsai. When you use perspective in a painting what do you call that? I believe that even the most abstract painter would still make use of his understanding of perspective to make the viewer see what he wants them to see.
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Re: TREE HEIGHT

Post by Ellen »

OK, AJ, art is about visual organisation and works of art should have unity but it's up to the artist to work out a way of achieving this. You can learn about elements of design such as colour, shape, line, balance etc but there is no recipe for putting them all together. You can consider doing this or that for this or that effect and you can look to other artists for inspiration but no one can tell you the right way to paint or sculpt. There aren't universal ideals of beauty anymore, now that we're more aware of other cultures and many artists aren't chasing beauty anyhow.
Bonsai is not a pure art. It's a blend of art and craft. There are rules in bonsai which cannot be broken. A bonsai cannot be weightier at the top than at its base. A bonsai must be placed in a pot in a prescribed position. A bonsai cannot slope away from the viewer. Desirable ratios relating to tree height, pot length etc come into play. It's about things looking nice - being aesthetically pleasing. With bonsai you can't just do what you feel like doing and this contrasts with the fine arts like painting and sculpture where you can do just that.
With bonsai you can end up with a creditable result in time ( well, a hell of a lot of time and probably quite a bit of money) from learning the craft, without necessarily having a lot of artistic talent. And that's great isn't it? Bonsai is a hobby for everyone.
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Re: TREE HEIGHT

Post by Bougy Fan »

Actually I have to politely disagree Ellen. Anyone can do whatever they want with a tree - a lot of people do and never show them to anyone else. It's only really when you are showing trees that the "rules" are looked at - have a look at a judging criteria for bonsai. But what about Nick Lenz and even our own Ray Nesci growing bonsi in or over strange objects ?

I agree that the "rules" are more really guidelines than hard and fast rules that you get your knuckles rapped for breaking. The bonsai I do are for me and it is what I find pleasing to my eye that I create. I certainly do not wander around with a tape measure checking ratios or making sure the branches are left, right and back.

Having said that the "guidelines" just always seem to work and make the tree look "correct" to the eye. A tree that is too tall for it's trunk diameter will not look right 99% of the time. However trees like Ken's Trident show that there is always an exception.
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TREE HEIGHT

Post by matlea »

Agree... There are 'rules' to most artistic pursuits, that have come about through trial and error, what feels right, or is logical, by the end become guiding 'principles'.. Once these are understood the boundaries can be pushed or explored. but most importantly.... Have fun!!! :)
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Re: TREE HEIGHT

Post by Ash »

Hi all,
Here is a little exercise for thought - get the ruler out and check (I got my digital callipers out).
There are six awarded bonsai in the Ausbonsai banner above. They were chosen either by a judging panel of experienced bonsai artists or by votes from the Ausbonsai community.
I reckon they are all beautiful bonsai.
Not one of them approaches the 6:1 ratio. The spectacular solid trunked Banksia is about 10:1. :whistle:
cheers
Ash
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Re: TREE HEIGHT

Post by Qitianlong »

Ash... that's awesome! :worship:
Last edited by Qitianlong on November 16th, 2012, 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TREE HEIGHT

Post by Andrew Legg »

Ellen wrote:OK, AJ, art is about visual organisation and works of art should have unity but it's up to the artist to work out a way of achieving this. You can learn about elements of design such as colour, shape, line, balance etc but there is no recipe for putting them all together. You can consider doing this or that for this or that effect and you can look to other artists for inspiration but no one can tell you the right way to paint or sculpt. There aren't universal ideals of beauty anymore, now that we're more aware of other cultures and many artists aren't chasing beauty anyhow.
Bonsai is not a pure art. It's a blend of art and craft. There are rules in bonsai which cannot be broken. A bonsai cannot be weightier at the top than at its base. A bonsai must be placed in a pot in a prescribed position. A bonsai cannot slope away from the viewer. Desirable ratios relating to tree height, pot length etc come into play. It's about things looking nice - being aesthetically pleasing. With bonsai you can't just do what you feel like doing and this contrasts with the fine arts like painting and sculpture where you can do just that.
With bonsai you can end up with a creditable result in time ( well, a hell of a lot of time and probably quite a bit of money) from learning the craft, without necessarily having a lot of artistic talent. And that's great isn't it? Bonsai is a hobby for everyone.
Hey Ellen,

I'm also going to disagree with parts of your post.

Art is defined as a human creation that is created by the implementation of skill and creativity, with the end goal being something that provides visual pleasure. At least, that's what my dictionary says. So, if we reference that statement to bonsai, where with skill and creativity we create something that gives us visual pleasure, then bonsai is art. What constitutes "pure art" is in my mind just a case of one artist believing he/she creates superior art to another. In my mind this is just a form of snobbery. I believe that art is entirely subjective. What appeals to you may not appeal to me, and of course, we may both like it, but someone else will not, so art becomes something that is purely in the eye of the beholder.

As for bonsai, the rules you talk about can all be broken very successfully. What these rules describe is the easiest way to get away with creating a somewhat accepted tree, but they do by no means ensure a piece of art. I see absolutely no reason why freedom of expression to find a visually appealing end result can not be allowed in bonsai, whilst in fine arts it can. I have seen some stunning literati bonsai that fall away from the viewer.

To sum up, my feeling on this topic is that we need to look at our trees not with rules in mind, but visual appeal in mind. We need to be ruthless in admitting who it is we are trying to please; ourselves or others. What we need to do when planning the development of a tree is to ask ourselves how we can increase it's visual appeal, and NOT how we can try to mould it to fit rules or design guidelines. A thin tall tree generally gives a visual feeling of femininity or youth, where a short powerful tree exudes masculinity or age. Working with this type of concept, rather than a ratio is in my mind important. when you look at trees, ask not what the rules can do for you, but rather what you can do to the tree to make it more visually pleasing according to the overarching design goal. Of course, an understanding of species specific tree physiology is essential in ensuring that your design will allow the tree to maintain its health.

Regards, and happy bonsai'ing! :tu:

Andrew
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TREE HEIGHT

Post by Bretts »

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1353101364.900830.jpg
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Re: TREE HEIGHT

Post by Bougy Fan »

An excellent example of a great tree that breaches the guidelines and looks fantastic Brett :tu:
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Re: TREE HEIGHT

Post by siddhar »

To sum up, my feeling on this topic is that we need to look at our trees not with rules in mind, but visual appeal in mind. We need to be ruthless in admitting who it is we are trying to please; ourselves or others. What we need to do when planning the development of a tree is to ask ourselves how we can increase it's visual appeal, and NOT how we can try to mould it to fit rules or design guidelines.
:tu2: :arrow: :arrow: :tu:
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Regards, Sidd.
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Re: TREE HEIGHT

Post by Bonsai4ever »

An interesting topic but one which I believe will never be answered to everyones satisfaction.
What we need to do when planning the development of a tree is to ask ourselves how we can increase it's visual appeal, and NOT how we can try to mould it to fit rules or design guidelines.
I believe that the visual appeal is increased by moulding it to our best endeavours within the design guidelines.

While I am interested to experiment with new ideas, my greatest concern for the concept of ignoring the basics in order to come up with some sort of new easy way to create bonsai, (especially by those who have not yet even mastered the practice of utilising the original guidelines), will eventuate in any old shrub in a pot will be a bonsai.... because I like it like that.
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Re: TREE HEIGHT

Post by chrisatrocky »

Anybody can learn an art. It comes easy to some and not so easy to others, but one thing is true, a natural talant in an art will always shine through. I believe that good foundation in the , so called "Rules" of bonsai (I prefer to call guidlines) is needed to develop great bonsai, not just good ones. The height of the tree is determend by the material not by rules or guide lines.

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Re: TREE HEIGHT

Post by Qitianlong »

looking at taper, as I tend to do these days, even whilst out with my wife on our 9th anniversary :o , this fig near the opera house shows an interesting branch taper, skinny - fat - skinny.
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