Any Hokkaideas???

[juan73870]

Hi Guys,
Its been a while since I have posted anything, always loving all the input from everyone on here though. SOOO informative and helpful!!
So, I received this elm recently and have been looking at it and just thinking and thinking - do i go the chop big time and start a fresh with a decent foundation? or do i leave it as a double with broom style or do i do a bit of something in between or do i try and hit it with some wire and try not to snap anything.....?
I just feel like its too lanky and boring but haven't really worked with this type of elm before, all of my others are your basic chinese elm - I'm pretty sure this one is what you call a "Hokkaido", as it has the tiny leaves in sort of fishbone formation.
Really would love some advice from you guru's on some styling ideas.
Hope the pictures work.....



Thanks guys!

Tim L
Adelaide

[shibui]

If it really is Hokkaido you will not be able to wire and bend. Hokkaido is so brittle that branches just drop off when wiring let alone bending them. You will need to be extremely careful when wiring or bending so clip and grow is advised.
However I don't think this one really is Hokkaido. Hokkaido is a dwarf and slow growing. This one has very long growth so I believe it looks more like Seiju which is also a a Chinese elm var that has quite small leaves and corky bark but much better to work with.
By the look of it you just need to cut back hard to improve the scale. That is simple with Chinese elm as they shoot back all over the stumps when pruned.
Consider whether short term scale is more important than growth and development. Lots of leaves and longer growth usually adds thickness to trunks and branches, Pruning will slow thickening so although it will look better it will take far longer to develop a really impressive bonsai.
Your tree, your decision.

[Ryceman3]

By the look of it you just need to cut back hard to improve the scale.
...
Your tree, your decision.

Agree with these bits of gold from shibui. Obviously the top part of the quote is what I think you should do, and the bottom part is the disclaimer...
In short, I think your decision (bottom part) should be to cut back as per the top part.
Now is a great time to get cracking!

[juan73870]

Thankyou both
I really appreciate your input and you've pretty much confirmed what I expected the right thing to do would be.
Thankyou, and I'll keep you posted once it's looking more like I'd like it to look

Tim L

[LLK]

Dunno, Shibui, wouldn't you first give it some time to recover? It looks healthy, but gee... what poor foliage growth! Just repotted, by the looks of it, in a pot that will nicely fit it in about five years' time. I'd leave the poor thing alone for a coouple of months.

Lisa

[Raging Bull]

I've just aquired a very small Seiju elm and the branch formation and leaf size looks very much like yours Juan. I've since also been told they tend to get die-back of branches for unknown reasons, it just happens. Something to be aware of.
Cheers, Frank.

[shibui]

Agree that this is certainly not the healthiest Chinese elm I've see Lisa but they are tough so I'd expect it to cope with a chop if that's the way he wants to go.
As with all trees it would respond better at peak health so certainly worth addressing that issue now that I've looked back at the pictures again. I hope it does not live permanently in that enclosed space where the photos were taken. Chinese elm really need good sun and air movement for best health so would probably do better where it gets at least morning sun. Mine have sun nearly all day but that's possibly not as hot as Adelaide sun. Plenty of water and good fertiliser should also give healthier growth.
The large pot should give plenty of insurance against beginner learning to water and will allow plenty of growth if size increase is required. Seiju make good shohin sized bonsai. This trunk looks quite good for a small broom style tree but small bonsai are harder to maintain and keep alive.

I've since also been told they tend to get die-back of branches for unknown reasons, it just happens. Something to be aware of.

This has been reported in all Chinese elm varieties but I've rarely seen it here. Not sure if that means it is climate related or if I've just been lucky. Not something to be really worried about

[juan73870]

Bit of an update.....
After reading about a billion posts from Shibui on this awesome forum, I came to the conclusion that his word is as close to gospel as I'll find on here and went ahead with his recommendation...

chop!

That was back in early November.
I thought I'd share a bit of an update on how this little guy is going...





I'm quite happy with it so far, and it's interesting to be able to watch the growth formation and learn more about how they grow.
Any input of ideas of changes etc. will definitely be warmly welcomed..............

Thanks everyone!

[TimS]

Good choice for sure, it will be much better going forward for your choice to cut back so hard

[tgooboon]

Hi Juan, It looks good. I really like the trunk taper
If it were mine I would keep cutting back growing tips to just under 2cm. This way it will keep splitting branches- 1 into 2, 2 into 4, 4 into 8, etc.. and the extra branches with really thicken up the canopy. And you will be able to keep it small.

[shibui]

I'm pretty sure this tree is not actually Hokkaido elm. The leaves are too big and the nodes far too long for Hokkaido. Not having seen it in person, just from the photos I'd say it is Seiju elm - another variety of Chinese elm.

Great response to the pruning. Well done.

Notice the difference the scale makes. Before when it was tall it looked quite skinny. Now proportions have changed and the trunk looks respectable.
There is great potential to grow a good small broom style tree from this. As Tgooboon has suggested, constant cutting back to get further ramification should give you a respectable shohin or mame sized broom bonsai in just a couple of years. If you want to grow it into a larger sized bonsai it will take many more.

This one does have other good options but the divided trunk suggests broom straight away to me.

[juan73870]

thanks very much for the input guys!
i'll update again in the future........