How do YOU develop trees?

[Mickeyjaytee]

From start to finish? I know that’s a big ask!

Being a beginner I’ve found information on YouTube/websites very broken up and there’s nothing that really covers the process. My question is; how do you develop trees from beginning to end, be it from seed/cutting/tubestock to bonsai ready?

I think my biggest problem has been getting new stock, doing the initial root sorting/pruning, letting it grow but, then not knowing what processes come next and so forth. What time frames and steps do I take? Do I use a big pot straight off the bat or, slip pot slowly? Do I trim back each year or just let it grow? When should I put in some initial bends? I know it’ll be different for all trees but, I ask in general.

I read a lot of the development threads on the forums here and, they’re great seeing the stages of development but, I do not know what order of steps to take and that’s giving me a lack of confidence.

I do think a problem of mine may be putting new stock into too small of a pot at the start and getting the roots rounded/bad nebari. I find however if I put the tree into a pot that’s too large, the roots push out to the edge of the pot leaving not much close to the trunk.

It would be awesome if anyone has a step by step guide and to also see what different methods everyone uses and how they get there. It’s tough getting the know how even with a plethora of books/websites/youtube channels and clubs. I think development is the most important step in bonsai and I really need more knowledge to improve. The development threads blow me away, you guys and gals have some impressive trees.

Anyway, any input or advice would be awesome and a great reference for myself and others! Cheers

[PeachSlices]

Join a club near you and bring the same tree in every month.

The people near you know your climate.

Cute the tree down.

Let the tree grow cut to shape. Wire the tree to shape.

Branch placement left, back, right, 45 back right, forward, 45 back left, left, back, right, apex.

branch ramification 1 becomes 2 then 4 then 8 then 16.

Join a club.

[SuperBonSaiyan]

I develop by aiming for thickness of the trunk first, then taper (more transitions = better), then primary branches (again taper and transition).

I say "then" but this is just priority, not order. Most often all three can be developed at the same time.

I haven't gotten there yet, but next comes secondary branching then tertiary, and ramification and maintenance from there.

Depending on species, I'll adjust accordingly.

For those young stock I try to wire in some interesting movement and then let it thicken and set.

All this time, I'll repot occasionally to maintain the roots and thus further build on taper through the nebari.

I found this video good: https://youtu.be/VJFuAlWo8MA?feature=shared

He talks about developing branches, thickening trunk, etc.

I also like his blog which has good pictures to accompany instructions: https://bonsaitonight.com/guides/

[TimS]

Join a club near you and bring the same tree in every month.

The people near you know your climate.

Cute the tree down.

Let the tree grow cut to shape. Wire the tree to shape.

Branch placement left, back, right, 45 back right, forward, 45 back left, left, back, right, apex.

branch ramification 1 becomes 2 then 4 then 8 then 16.

Join a club.

This is a good way to start learning the basics, very recipe book way to design a tree. The book Bonsai with Japanese Maples by Peter Adams has an illustration section showing exactly this process in different styles over multiple years to see how it ends up going

Don't get stuck designing all your trees this way though. Ends up pretty boring tbh after a while

Study trees in nature, look at the natural twists and turns, the unusual changes of direction, the weird taper etc. Far more interesting than 'perfect' branch placement

Generally I wouldn't advise starting from seed/ cutting etc unless you know what you're doing. Time lines to get anywhere are enormous, confusing to know what you do and don't need, end up making mistakes or putting the in the ground to thicken faster and not working them enough. There is lots of good starter material around very cheap that removes much of the guesswork by giving you a decent root base and some primaries already

[treeman]

Start to finish is the wrong question. Forget about the ''finish''

Start here.....

Root triming.JPG

Then do this....The dotted lines are soil mound and final level

1st Planting.JPG

Then for most evergreen and deciduous do this. If the plant does not shoot from leafless, leave.....leaves.
This induces taper and is done continuously throughout the life of the tree on smaller and smaller branches.

Pruning for development.JPG

Basic directional pruning...

Basic Prunning.JPG

From then on it is more involved and requires understanding of what to leave and what to remove to get the result you are after. It might be to fatten trunks, extend or reduce strength in a particular area, balancing, pruning for light penetration etc. etc.
The trick is always to have your sight on next year as you do work this year. Doing work for ''this year'' only comes when the tree is ready for ''viewing'', but you really always work for the future not the present.

[Mickeyjaytee]

Thanks so much for the replies guys, really stoked to read about the steps I need to take. Awesome information.

I’ve joined both clubs in WA but, generally only go to one. Too many politics in the other it’s a real shame.

Thanks for the tips on branch placement and ramification PeachSlices.

The blog and video is really great info, cheers SuperSaiyan.

Thanks for the advice Tim. I’ll see if I can find the book. I often find myself taking photos of lots of trees when walking the dog. Aussie natives have such real unique shapes.

Treeman, those pictures are brilliant. Thank you. That helps me out so much mate. It gives me good insight to what Shibui was saying about using the first branch as the main trunk.

Thanks again all so far, it’s really helping me out. Cheers

[PeachSlices]

We are all still learning, Pick a tree you like and dive into youtube.

Dont pick ilex serrata i'm still trying to find more info.

Ask questions at the club regarding the tree you like then once youve got one under control choose another species.

BonsaiQ on youtube after you turn on english subs opens my mind to new techniques I don't normally see.
Heron's bonsai for learning bonsai basics with taper.
Bonsai Shinshi for "watching and learning" shows yearly development of trees

Bonsai stuff podcast by Scott Martin on spotify are interesting and another form of learning.

[dansai]

Some good info above. I definitely don't subscribe to the left, right, back way of building tress. Although I did early on. I try to leave any branches that have their own space. i.e remove branches that are directly above/below another. Picking which one will depend on where the other branches are. Try and give space between where branch comes off the trunk. Too many close together can form ugly bulges. Leaving more branches that you may end up using down the track is fine. It will help with thickening and taper.

As for slip potting, never do it unless the roots have only just reached the outside of the root ball. Slip potting when roots have started circling is only asking for trouble. (Slip potting as referred to here is just taking a plant out of one pot and putting it into the next size up)

Work the roots each time you repot, even if it is to just untangle them. Don't over pot your trees. Progressively move up in size. You want the roots to populate all the media/mix fairly quickly, especially if using standard potting mix, otherwise it can stay too wet and not have enough air in it. It is the newly growing root tips that take up water and nutrients, so you want vigorous root growth when developing trees.

[treeman]

Don't over pot your trees. Progressively move up in size. You want the roots to populate all the media/mix fairly quickly, especially if using standard potting mix, otherwise it can stay too wet and not have enough air in it. It is the newly growing root tips that take up water and nutrients, so you want vigorous root growth when developing trees.

A very important point.

[Patmet]

There is so much to bonsai that I think it is quite hard to answer this question without writing a novel. A lot of it is patience and persistence to build your knowledge over time and keep trying again when things fail.

The advice offerred on this thread is a very good start. Especially what treeman has shown in the diagrams. You can't go wrong following those principles. Also what dansai has said. I'll second that with what he has said about pot sizing. That has been a game changer for me in my growing of stock.

[Mickeyjaytee]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I so greatly appreciate it

I love BonsaiQ, those guys do some pretty neat stuff and I really dig the bean bonsai. I think a Perth summer would cook them though

Thanks for the info Dansai. I’m wondering, when growing from young seedling/cutting etc. do you mean start with a small pot and keep the roots nice and compact, not letting them ‘run away’ then, take out the plant, sort the roots, perhaps trim, then place into the next size up? This is where I have the most confusion with developing as a beginner and I want to be 100% as to I’m also told to sort the roots then just let it grow for a few years in a big pot as to touching the roots will slow the plants growth right down. It’s confusing stuff.

I think the heat in Perth and lots of water really makes root systems grow fast. Perhaps faster than over east? If I checked the plants yearly, they would most certainly already be root bound. The native nursery said when buying local shrubs that whatever size the plants label says it grows to, it will grow bigger over here as to the labels are made over east

Haha I don’t make things easy Pat, sorry mate I always appreciate your input! I’ll stick to the diagrams and get try get my head around growing the roots.

Thanks again all

[dansai]

Not keeping them tight and compact, that would be what you want to achieve when transferring a tree in refinement in to a bonsai container.

If you have a cutting with roots, or a freshly sprouted seed go to something like a 50mm square tube. Once it has put on some decent growth, possibly within 6 months depending on species, remove from that and you should see many roots running down the inside of the tube. You can tease these out, even trim a little and plant on a mound in a 100mm round pot to ensure roots are heading out to the edge. This will give the roots plenty of room to "run" and also ensure they populate the potting media fairly quickly. If you do minimum root trimming (only possible if you do it timely before it gets root bound) then it won't set the tree back at all. Even if you have to remove roots, if the tree is young it is unlikely to slow it down very much. And even if it did, you are getting better roots so in the long run you are saving time.

Repeat the above procedure moving to the next size in stages 100mm to 150mm, 150 to 175 or 200. The interval between will probably get longer as a jump from 100 to 150 is a fair bit of volume difference, and up form 150 even greater. If you go from a 50mm tube straight to a 200mm pot, it will take ages for there roots to populate the pot and you are asking for trouble as the mix can stay too we and its not giving you the chance to check roots more often. Once you get to the 200mm pot size you can either go the next size up again or start removing more roots to get it back into that size. I tend to go from 200mm to orchid pots, and depending on the trunk and what im trying to achieve that may be 300mm, 200mm or even down size to a 175 or 150.

People often seemed scared of rootwork and so say things like, "Don't disturb the roots", "You will slow it down if you cut roots off". Like so many things in Bonsai, there may be some truth in it (e.g a 70 year old Black pine should be repotted with great care) but there is also a lot of myth and speculation. I routinely repot and do rootwork on all my developing trees, often removing plenty of roots, and rarely have a problem.

[Mickeyjaytee]

Ok so, getting my head around it. I DO want the roots to run. Once they get to the outside (pot edges) tease them out and pot up? If so, how do you check the progress of roots? I’m thinking the soil media wouldn’t be filled and a lot will crumble away everywhere if I flip the plant over to check.

It would be hard to get it right, finding that spot before the roots start rounding the pot. I’d assume then once you have the desired size, you would gradually over time reduce the size of the roots

Sorry, I’m a tad unwell atm and a little slow in the uptake

Thanks mate

[Mickeyjaytee]

Just a little bump, specifically with the “root running”. I’m a little confused. With shimpaku I’ve been told to make sure you have lots of feeder roots close to the trunk, I’d assume that’s correct for most species especially when it comes to root reduction in preparation for the bonsai pot.

If I let them run, won’t the roots be spread far from the plant? Most videos/pics I see of a bonsai being repotted, the roots look quite dense and compact.

Sorry, I’m slow on the uptake, I just want to get this right! I have a heap of cuttings/tubestock ready to rock and roll!

Thanks guys

[TimIAm]

If I let them run, won’t the roots be spread far from the plant?

First, we want roots to run, because that's what healthy roots do. Which is also good for the tree.

Secondly, the reason we have a reasonable repotting cycle is to avoid having inefficient or bound root system and to 'have lots of feeder roots close to the trunk'. (To be clear, it's not *just next to the trunk*, more-so having a healthy feeder root system within the pot).

So, we let them run and then we prune when necessary. The two above appear to be contradictory, 1. let them run, 2. prune them so they stay close. But the two goals are not done at exactly the same time. We let them grow for a reasonable amount of time and then we prune when that reasonable amount of time is up.

We don't continually prune to keep roots at a safe length and nobody is suggesting to let them run indefinitely.

The next important point that is mentioned in the replies is pot size. Don't over-pot. Allow for a good size where the tree can fill the pot with roots in a reasonable time frame. This is the: "Most videos/pics I see of a bonsai being repotted, the roots look quite dense and compact.". We want the roots to grow healthy and reach the edges. Then prune. Then we can consider going up in pot size (if you are developing a smaller tree). Then the cycle begins again.


Once they get to the outside (pot edges) tease them out and pot up? Once it is time for a repot then tease them out, pot up if needed (tree in development) and don't forget to prune as needed. Maybe the pruning is the part that is being left out? We are not "potting up" to keep the roots growing further out. When you pot up, you still need to prune. Pot size isn't directly related to the **current length of the roots** or giving the long roots more room to grow, it's about the wellbeing requirements of the tree.

It would be hard to get it right, finding that spot before the roots start rounding the pot. It's not that hard and there is reasonable amount of room. It still takes a reasonable amount of time for bonsai which is being looked after to become root bound. Those videos on youtoube etc. where you see a juniper get taken out of its pot and it's filled with roots and they have to cut off a third and rake the roots out; they are not root bound, as in having so many roots it becomes a problem. What you are seeing is a growing healthy root system which is ready for root maintenance. Don't stress too much that if you miss your repotting day, that your tree is going to strangle itself to death in another 4 or even 6 weeks.

As with anything (watering, feeding, repotting, pruning) etc. individual trees will have different needs and it's part of learning and knowing your trees. Different species can grow roots faster or slower. It's all learning and knowing.