Black pine seedling cuttings

[squizzy]

Hi Scott,



These were not seedling cuttings as such they were actually cuttings taken from the top of a seedling not the bottom. so what is achieved here is a standard seedling still remains and hopefully a cutting with very short distance between first growth section and roots.

Cheers

Squizz

[shibui]

- longer 'gap' between the first set of needles and the roots roughly 5cm
- a tap root with feeder roots emerging along its length.

I'm not sure these are real issues Scott. I would have cut the tap root when I first pricked out the seedlings and most would have responded to produce lots of strong radial roots by now. Even if you have left them undisturbed for a whole year as you appear to have done you can still cut the tap root just below a cluster of side roots. My experience has been that the seedlings with cut roots will still grow on just as well after potting up and in a year or 2 you will not be able to pick the difference between them and your seedling cuttings.

Well done Squizzy on striking a few. Mine have been very slow over winter but all still alive. I potted up a few with good roots recently and put the rest back under mist and I expect more to show roots as the temp rises. I also took some more cuttings from the fresh growth on the seedlings and some of the earlier rooted cuttings, just to see how long I can keep getting viable cuttings of these plants.

[Drac0]

Just wondering how tall I should let the seedlings grow before trying this? I have a some that popped up a few weeks ago so looking at trying the cuttings in the future.

Cheers

[shibui]

I've been using cuttings anywhere between 3 and 8 cm long so the seedlings are usually around 7-10 cm tall when I take the cuttings. Some of the seedlings got away at one stage and were about 12-15 cm tall and I got 2 cuttings from each of those. I have been concentrating on taking juvenile growth so don't let the seedlings get too big before taking your cuttings. Also the original aim of this was to produce plants with plenty of low branches so you need to cut your seedlings early to get plenty of low buds.

I have been taking cuttings from the last lot of seedlings (and the early cuttings I struck from them) regularly over autumn and winter and all seem to be producing roots so starting to look like this can be done at any time of the year. Root production is a bit slower over winter as you would expect.
Cuttings taken from the rooted cuttings have also been successful.

[Drac0]

So you're cutting the original seedlings pretty low down then, just above the bottom leaves?

[shibui]

Correct Mark, I leave maybe 1-2 cm of leaves on the trunk after cutting them back. New shoots usually only grow near the cut so if you cut high you will mostly get high branching. My advice - cut low cut often (at least for a start)

Just for interest I took more cuttings today. Most of the plants now have adult needles so it will be interesting to see if they still strike

[lackhand]

Just curious, has anybody tried using candles for cuttings?

[shibui]

I have tried candles several times Karl - unopened, partly opened, with needles. Every time they just wilt quickly and eventually die. Not sure why. I had thought candles would be similar to softwood or immature cuttings but so far no good.

[lackhand]

I have tried candles several times Karl - unopened, partly opened, with needles. Every time they just wilt quickly and eventually die. Not sure why. I had thought candles would be similar to softwood or immature cuttings but so far no good.

Thanks Neil, good to know.

[Neli]

Very interesting Neil...Thank you for posting.

[shibui]

Just resurrecting this old thread on propagating black pines from seedling cuttings with an update.

This year I was able to get some JBP seed and germinated a tray of seedlings.
Traditionally pine seedlings are chopped where the stem turns purple, the root section thrown away and the upper section struck as a cutting.
Trial and observation led me to discover that it is not so much where you cut pine seedlings for success as cuttings, rather it is about using juvenile growth for cuttings so I started taking cuttings from the upper section of the seedling which gave me a new cutting and also retained the lower section as a viable plant - 2 pines from each seed which may be important when seed is so hard to come by.

This year's seedling cuttings were showing good roots out the bottom of the cutting pot so today I potted them on.

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[wrcmad]

.....and also retained the lower section as a viable plant - 2 pines from each seed which may be important when seed is so hard to come by.

Any pics/progress of the lower sections?

[shibui]

Any pics/progress of the lower sections?

An assortment of pics to show the various comparative growth. All the following are from the same batch of seed.
The ones that were pricked out into individual pots early have grown more than the ones left in the seed tray - more space, more light, more fert, water, etc. but height and trunk thickness alone are not good indicators of future bonsai. Trunk taper, branching and bends are all important parts of bonsai.

The seedlings that were pruned may look poor and undersize compared to unchopped seedlings. As the super funds say, past performance is no guarantee of future development.....
Chopped seedlings:

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Not chopped in the seed tray:

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Not chopped, pricked out early into individual 11 cm pots:

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Hope that answers the question? Please note above - fast growth in the first year does not = better bonsai in future....

[pyrohamish]

Shibui, would you now recommend letting seedlings grow on and then take cuttings and leave a viable bottom section so we get two for one, rather than the the typical seedling cutting?

Am I correct in saying you are taking the cuttings in late January?

Thinking further, could I take a seeding cutting now, and then, take another in January just off the top? Two for one but with two good nebaris?

[shibui]

Shibui, would you now recommend letting seedlings grow on and then take cuttings and leave a viable bottom section so we get two for one, rather than the the typical seedling cutting?

Each grower will have a different response to this. Depends whether they need lots of pines, have access to seed, etc.
I only grow cuttings to make best use of scarce seed. Root development of well root pruned seedlings is similar to cuttings so nebari alone does not justify the extra time and effort.
Difficulty obtaining seed is a good incentive to try for multiple trees from each seed though don't just limit yourself to 2 trees from each seed. I have taken top cuttings whenever the seedlings are tall enough then, later, when either those cuttings or the original seedlings have grown enough, taken further cuttings. Top pruned seedlings will produce up to 5 new shoots so every one of those shoots is a potential new cutting when they grow long enough to cut again. At times I've continued harvesting more cuttings whenever regrowth is available. Provided the seedlings/cuttings are still in juvenile phase cuttings will still strike at close to 100%. Sometimes I've managed to get up to 10 new trees from a single seedling this way over a period of 2 years and I expect you may be able to get even more if you try hard.
A valuable by-product of taking cuttings from the top of seedlings (and the reason I started chopping JBP seedlings) is plenty of valuable shoots much closer to the roots than usually produced by seedlings. Helps avoid those long, bare trunks typical of many young JBP.

Take cuttings whenever the seedlings are tall enough to harvest a viable section of stem. Occasionally I've had seedlings tall enough to cut the stem into 2 smaller cuttings. Timing can be anywhere between late November and February depending how early the seedlings emerged, growth rate, etc.

Thinking further, could I take a seeding cutting now, and then, take another in January just off the top? Two for one but with two good nebaris?

As mentioned above - I can achieve good nebari simply by root pruning the existing seedling roots at first transplant. Not every cutting will give great nebari so don't go into seedling cuttings just hoping for 100% great roots.
Results may vary. You may find that cuttings do produce much better roots