unsuccessful layer what next?

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PWC
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unsuccessful layer what next?

Post by PWC » February 17th, 2020, 7:01 am

G'day all,
I applied an air layer to the trunk on a juniperus squamata in october last year, while the tree above the layer is still healthy there are no signs of root production. On inspection no callousing has formed either, as we are fast approaching autumn what is the chances of success from here?

Would it be worth while reapplying rooting hormone and leaving it on over winter? If anyone has experienced a similar situation I would be interested to hear how you went.

Peter.
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Re: unsuccessful layer what next?

Post by Alan Peck » February 17th, 2020, 7:36 am

Not knowing the exact method you used it can be difficult the answer this but because junipers are relatevly slow growing Aug would have seen an increased chance with the timing. Moisture is also a critical aspect in the wrap. I would write it off and try again with a new one this year on another branch but its not a tree that I would attept one. I have learned that you will have to give your self a 50% chace on airlayers so I'll never apply just one on any tree.
Good luck.

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Re: unsuccessful layer what next?

Post by Sno » February 17th, 2020, 10:31 am

I have had a few layers that took 3 years . As long as the top is still green should be ok . You might have to check that the cambium ( bark ) hasn’t bridged any where . I live in one of the coldest parts of Australia and the cold maybe slows them down but it didn’t stop most of the layers that I have done .
I know people who start the layers in autumn because they have good results . I’ve done Juniper , from memory it was 18 months before I removed it .

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Re: unsuccessful layer what next?

Post by terryb » February 17th, 2020, 12:13 pm

Hi PWC,

Are these the layers from this thread https://www.ausbonsai.com.au/forum/view ... 93#p271293?

My juniper layer from that thread has produced roots and I think I probably need to separate it as I am having a hard time keeping it wet.

You probably don't have anything to lose by re-scraping the peeled area as Sno suggested, re-cutting the base (where the roots are supposed to emerge), adding more rooting hormone and trying again. We still have more growing season left in SA and although growth does slow, I don't think these actually stop in our climate.

Good luck.

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Re: unsuccessful layer what next?

Post by PWC » February 17th, 2020, 5:40 pm

Alan Peck wrote:
February 17th, 2020, 7:36 am
I would write it off and try again with a new one this year on another branch but its not a tree that I would attept one. I have learned that you will have to give your self a 50% chace on airlayers so I'll never apply just one on any tree.
Good luck.
Sno wrote:
February 17th, 2020, 10:31 am
I have had a few layers that took 3 years . As long as the top is still green should be ok . You might have to check that the cambium ( bark ) hasn’t bridged any where . I live in one of the coldest parts of Australia and the cold maybe slows them down but it didn’t stop most of the layers that I have done .
I know people who start the layers in autumn because they have good results . I’ve done Juniper , from memory it was 18 months before I removed it .
terryb wrote:
February 17th, 2020, 12:13 pm
Are these the layers from this thread https://www.ausbonsai.com.au/forum/view ... 93#p271293?

My juniper layer from that thread has produced roots and I think I probably need to separate it as I am having a hard time keeping it wet.

You probably don't have anything to lose by re-scraping the peeled area as Sno suggested, re-cutting the base (where the roots are supposed to emerge), adding more rooting hormone and trying again. We still have more growing season left in SA and although growth does slow, I don't think these actually stop in our climate.

Good luck.
Alan, I think it's worth persevering with this one as it is still putting on new growth above the layer site. We don't get a long summer here down in the south east of the state as they do in Adelaide.

Sno, Thanks for the advice I will continue, do you think it would be better to change the method over winter? I tried the ring bark and sphagnum wrap method. Is it easier to control the moisture level using an open pot attached and watering when required as it is easier to check the moisture level. I used this method on a crepe myrtle and it seemed to work better the the sphagnum wrap on the same tree.

Terry, good to see you have a successful result :cool: Your tree had a lot more foliage and a better weather conditions than I get down here. In hindsight I shouldn't have reduced tree before applying the layer. As I have discovered Juniper are very reliant on foliage mass for the ongoing health of the tree.
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Re: unsuccessful layer what next?

Post by Sno » February 17th, 2020, 9:01 pm

“Sno Thanks for the advice I will continue, do you think it would be better to change the method over winter? I tried the ring bark and sphagnum wrap method. Is it easier to control the moisture level using an open pot attached and watering when required as it is easier to check the moisture level. I used this method on a crepe myrtle and it seemed to work better the the sphagnum wrap on the same tree”

I have only had success with the spag , plastic wrap method . I tried the open pot but it didn’t really work for me because it probably dried out to often . I wrap alfoil over the layer in the winter ,I don’t know if it makes much of a difference but I like to think it’s a little bit warmer .

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Re: unsuccessful layer what next?

Post by PWC » February 17th, 2020, 10:04 pm

Sno wrote:
February 17th, 2020, 9:01 pm
I have only had success with the spag , plastic wrap method . I tried the open pot but it didn’t really work for me because it probably dried out to often . I wrap alfoil over the layer in the winter ,I don’t know if it makes much of a difference but I like to think it’s a little bit warmer .
We do get frosts down here in winter so the it may be beneficial, it certainly couldn't hurt. If nothing else I'll learn something one way or the other. The lower half won't be comprised so it's worth another 9 - 12 months to give it a chance.
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Re: unsuccessful layer what next?

Post by shibui » February 18th, 2020, 5:59 am

Some people seem to have better success with open pots, others get far better with sphagnum. Open pot is only good if you can water every day so not so good for layers in the garden or at someone else's place. you'll need to work out what works for you.
You have had a look at the area so you know what we can't see. If the ringbark has not grown over I would just replace the sphagnum and wrap and give it longer. Paint on extra rooting hormone is optional but will probably help.
Squamata should grow roots quickly but that's relative to other junipers which can be slow to root. Larger and older wood also takes longer. Maybe you are just a little impatient with this one. Reduced foliage probably hasn't helped either.
As long as the top is still green and viable you should still be good.
For what it is worth, I would not recut the area unless it has grown over the ringbark.

Good luck :fc:
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Re: unsuccessful layer what next?

Post by PWC » February 18th, 2020, 12:35 pm

shibui wrote:
February 18th, 2020, 5:59 am
Some people seem to have better success with open pots, others get far better with sphagnum. Open pot is only good if you can water every day so not so good for layers in the garden or at someone else's place. you'll need to work out what works for you.
You have had a look at the area so you know what we can't see. If the ringbark has not grown over I would just replace the sphagnum and wrap and give it longer. Paint on extra rooting hormone is optional but will probably help.
Squamata should grow roots quickly but that's relative to other junipers which can be slow to root. Larger and older wood also takes longer. Maybe you are just a little impatient with this one. Reduced foliage probably hasn't helped either.
As long as the top is still green and viable you should still be good.
For what it is worth, I would not recut the area unless it has grown over the ringbark.

Good luck :fc:
The main reason for the layer was to reduce the tree rather than the possibilities the top would present. I didn't like the idea of chopping the top and throwing it away. Also it provides me with a chance to try a layer on a juniper, something I have not done before.

The pics below show the layer site and the top of the tree, there is no bridging and I think the top looks reasonably healthy. I will reapply the hormone, probably a mix of powder and gel this time. How far up from the cut would you suggest?
IMG_1532 (Large).JPG
IMG_1531 (Large).JPG
IMG_1530 (Large).JPG
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Re: unsuccessful layer what next?

Post by shibui » February 18th, 2020, 6:06 pm

Are those current pictures? The wood looks fresh scraped but maybe you just did that to check for bridging.
I assume the upper end is away from the green tie as there does seem to be some callus there though it has already matured to brown like the bark. I think it will be ready to make roots soon.
I normally apply hormone to the edge of the cut bark where the roots will form and would do that again here - apply it to around 1cm strip just above the bare wood and even on the bared part. I have read that the rooting compounds (not really hormones but we are conditioned to use that term) can penetrate through the bark so it should help even if there is no bare wound this time.
The top does look healthy enough to leave it alone for now and try again. As pointed out juniper sometimes take a long time to root so just leave it packed up over winter and check again in spring. Just check occasionally that the moss is still damp enough.
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Re: unsuccessful layer what next?

Post by PWC » February 18th, 2020, 7:23 pm

shibui wrote:
February 18th, 2020, 6:06 pm
Are those current pictures? The wood looks fresh scraped but maybe you just did that to check for bridging.
I assume the upper end is away from the green tie as there does seem to be some callus there though it has already matured to brown like the bark. I think it will be ready to make roots soon.
I normally apply hormone to the edge of the cut bark where the roots will form and would do that again here - apply it to around 1cm strip just above the bare wood and even on the bared part. I have read that the rooting compounds (not really hormones but we are conditioned to use that term) can penetrate through the bark so it should help even if there is no bare wound this time.
The top does look healthy enough to leave it alone for now and try again. As pointed out juniper sometimes take a long time to root so just leave it packed up over winter and check again in spring. Just check occasionally that the moss is still damp enough.
Thanks Shibui, the pics are current just removed the moss. I'll see how it goes over the next few months. Even if it does produce roots it would be best to leave it in place until spring.
Peter.

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Re: unsuccessful layer what next?

Post by shibui » February 18th, 2020, 8:09 pm

layers seem to be able to survive on surprisingly few roots. A few small roots are enough to supply limited water and enough to send the separated layer into full root production mode to survive.
I agree that, this late in the season with no roots it will be better to leave it right through to spring.
Just be aware that if it does make lots of good roots they can suck the moss dry really quick and the layer may die. Probably won't happen here but I have lost some maple layers this way so check moisture levels regularly, even in winter.
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