Yamadori Inspiration

Discussions about propagating from cuttings, seeds, air layers etc. Going on a dig (Yamadori) or thinking of importing? Discuss how, when and where here.
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Yamadori Inspiration

Post by KIRKY »

Stumbled across this site thought it might interest all our Yamadori collectors. A bit of inspiration for those difficult trunk lines.

https://andbonsai.com/all-works/

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Re: Yamadori Inspiration

Post by Rory »

Page 2 in particular, is cringe worthy for me to look at.

An interesting thing about ramification is that when you ramify the branching too much, it starts to look contrived.

Its a common erk that many people feel compelled to strive for. But if you look at most trees in nature, they aren't anywhere near as ramified as what a lot of bonsai are (in ratio of course).

The best example of this is fig trees. The fact that you can get amazing ramification on fig trees, or even banksia trees for that matter, and casurina, mel etc etc, doesn't mean you should. Its completely subjective of course, but when you compare most advanced bonsai to a tree, it looks .... really contrived - and only when you stand back and compare them side by side as a photo comparison - is when you can no longer 'unsee' it.

In my opinion, the old belief that you shouldn't have any branches that are long and wavy and not without 10,000 twigs on them, or that don't look like an arthritic hand, is out-dated.

What you end up producing is not a miniature tree, but rather a caricature of a tree.
Last edited by Rory on September 15th, 2021, 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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How to reduce moss from the trunk without damaging the bark: viewtopic.php?p=295227#p295227
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Re: Yamadori Inspiration

Post by gmaravelisvet »

Rory wrote:An interesting thing about ramification is that when you ramify the branching too much, it starts to look contrived.

Its a common erk that many people feel compelled to strive for. But if you look at most trees in nature, they aren't anywhere near as ramified as what a lot of bonsai are (in ratio of course).

The best example of this is fig trees. The fact that you can get amazing ramification on fig trees, or even banksia trees for that matter, and casurina, mel etc etc, doesn't mean you should. Its completely subjective of course, but when you compare most advanced bonsai to a tree, it looks .... really contrived - and only when you stand back and compare them side by side as a photo comparison - is when you can no longer 'unsee' it.

In my opinion, the old belief that you shouldn't have any branches that are long and wavy and not without 10,000 twigs on them, or that don't look like an arthritic hand, is out-dated.

What you end up producing is not a miniature tree, but rather a caricature of a tree.
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Re: Yamadori Inspiration

Post by KIRKY »

Agree Rory, I was only looking at the trunks and not bothering with the ramifications that’s another story to Yamadori.
I sometimes find unusual trunks just have me stumped….
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Re: Yamadori Inspiration

Post by Ryceman3 »

KIRKY wrote: September 15th, 2021, 3:23 pm ... unusual trunks just have me stumped….
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Re: Yamadori Inspiration

Post by Rory »

KIRKY wrote: September 15th, 2021, 3:23 pm I sometimes find unusual trunks just have me stumped….
:lol: :lol:
:beer:

I'm laughing both inappropriately and appropriately
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Re: Yamadori Inspiration

Post by delisea »

Rory wrote: September 15th, 2021, 2:59 pm An interesting thing about ramification is that when you ramify the branching too much, it starts to look contrived.
Hi Rory, I'm curious which trees in particular do you find over-ramified on this site? (The site as I see it doesn't have page numbers.) Most to my eye need more ramification.

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Re: Yamadori Inspiration

Post by Rory »

delisea wrote: September 15th, 2021, 4:10 pm
Rory wrote: September 15th, 2021, 2:59 pm An interesting thing about ramification is that when you ramify the branching too much, it starts to look contrived.
Hi Rory, I'm curious which trees in particular do you find over-ramified on this site? (The site as I see it doesn't have page numbers.) Most to my eye need more ramification.

Cheers,
Symon
Hi Symon... hope you're well mate.

Maybe it shows different on your phone, or maybe its just because you're old and your eyes don't work well anymore because you can't see the page numbers at the bottom, :lol: :lol:

If you open on a laptop there are 5 pages, showing the link for page 2 on the bottom. Here is a link for page 2:

https://andbonsai.com/all-works/page/2/

But its not just the ramification I am talking about. You have stumps with thick primary branches, with one or two off shoots, then a bazillion
"Tim Burton" type branches off of that, clearly showing that the tree suddenly develops a trillion crooked branches on an otherwise unrefined structure.
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Bonsai: Casuarina Leptospermum Banksia Phebalium Baeckea Melalueca Ficus

Growing Australian natives as Bonsai: viewtopic.php?p=289480#p289480

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Growing tips for Casuarina as Bonsai: viewtopic.php?p=244995#p244995

How to reduce moss from the trunk without damaging the bark: viewtopic.php?p=295227#p295227
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Re: Yamadori Inspiration

Post by delisea »

Rory wrote: September 15th, 2021, 4:27 pm But its not just the ramification I am talking about. You have stumps with thick primary branches, with one or two off shoots, then a bazillion
"Tim Burton" type branches off of that
OK, yeah I get the lack of taper in branches issue. It is the very difficult to solve. As far as I can tell the only way that can be achieved is lots of time. I would like to see what the Japanese would do with collected deciduous material like this. Are there any examples I wonder?

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Re: Yamadori Inspiration

Post by SquatJar »

I'm glad you clarified that it's the change in taper and branch characteristic you feel is contrived and not so much too many twigs. I don't think any of these trees have too much ramification. The only time I've seen a bonsai I would label as too ramified would be a few at Kokufu, where they're so dense you can't see through the leafless silhouette.

These collected trees are relatively young, I'd guess around 10-20 years max since collection. I'm guessing the designer has over styled the branches as when the branches fill out, the curves will soften and match the older, thicker branches. Also, and probably more importantly, these trees are for sale, they need to look close to a finished bonsai to sell for higher prices.

And just to show these could all have more ramification and not look contrived, here are some trees that, well, just look like deciduous trees in winter.
fcbc6250701948d9154f5865cfe6ed98.jpg
4211191364_d556a0bbaf_b.jpg
10004276-0-image-a-46_1550590536836.jpg
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Re: Yamadori Inspiration

Post by SquatJar »

delisea wrote: September 15th, 2021, 5:53 pm I would like to see what the Japanese would do with collected deciduous material like this. Are there any examples I wonder?
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Re: Yamadori Inspiration

Post by SquatJar »

delisea wrote: September 15th, 2021, 5:53 pm I would like to see what the Japanese would do with collected deciduous material like this. Are there any examples I wonder?
Last edited by SquatJar on September 15th, 2021, 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Yamadori Inspiration

Post by SquatJar »

delisea wrote: September 15th, 2021, 5:53 pm I would like to see what the Japanese would do with collected deciduous material like this. Are there any examples I wonder?
I believe it was mentioned on a podcast recently that most of the show ready Korean Hornbeams in Japan are yamadori, and nearly all of those I've seen look stunning. I'll have to look through a few blogs or some show albums for examples.

Sorry for the triple post! Don't know what happened with the quote and edit buttons there..... :lost:
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Re: Yamadori Inspiration

Post by Rory »

SquatJar wrote: September 15th, 2021, 6:10 pm I'm glad you clarified that it's the change in taper and branch characteristic you feel is contrived and not so much too many twigs. I don't think any of these trees have too much ramification. The only time I've seen a bonsai I would label as too ramified would be a few at Kokufu, where they're so dense you can't see through the leafless silhouette.

These collected trees are relatively young, I'd guess around 10-20 years max since collection. I'm guessing the designer has over styled the branches as when the branches fill out, the curves will soften and match the older, thicker branches. Also, and probably more importantly, these trees are for sale, they need to look close to a finished bonsai to sell for higher prices.

And just to show these could all have more ramification and not look contrived, here are some trees that, well, just look like deciduous trees in winter.

fcbc6250701948d9154f5865cfe6ed98.jpg4211191364_d556a0bbaf_b.jpg10004276-0-image-a-46_1550590536836.jpg
Its both. Notice that your pics are highlighting my point. In those pics you posted, you can still see long sweeping primary branches that gradually produce ramification towards the ends, similar on giant fig trees. But the error that many enthusiasts make is to ramify so quickly on the primary branches, without allowing for the longer branches that trees normally develop.

The worst advice I ever heard back in the 90s and still quoted today, was to only allow 1 or 2 finger width lengths of straight branching before you must cut or bend the branch. :palm:
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Bonsai: Casuarina Leptospermum Banksia Phebalium Baeckea Melalueca Ficus

Growing Australian natives as Bonsai: viewtopic.php?p=289480#p289480

Buying and repotting Native nursery material: viewtopic.php?f=78&t=30724

Growing tips for Casuarina as Bonsai: viewtopic.php?p=244995#p244995

How to reduce moss from the trunk without damaging the bark: viewtopic.php?p=295227#p295227
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Re: Yamadori Inspiration

Post by SquatJar »

Gotcha, I can definitely see some of the trees ramify too early, promoting more of a shrub image.

On the website I think Andrija's cherry plums do the best job of keeping longer sweeping primaries and secondaries before reaching the ramification.

Check out Cherry Plum #9, the ramification at time of collection in 2017 was insane!
ANDBonsai 2017 PC 9.jpg
And then after first pruning 2 years later
ANDBonsai 2019 PC 9.jpg
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