seed propagation

[jarryd]

i received some pine seeds today in the mail and now have them soaking, they need a cold stratification period of 60 days before sowing, i am unsure wether it is better to stratify them then allow them to germinate at the end of autumn or if i should leave the seeds in the fridge untill spring. if i leave them untill spring will the trees prematurely germinate or begin to rot. i have 2 mm diatomite sand to use for propagation, i am planing on using this straight should i mix in any cocopeat for moisture retention?

thanks jarryd

[Bretts]

I usually plant my Pine seeds in Spring with no stratification. I have heard that germination improves with stratification but I have found germination very good without. Now that you have soaked them I guess that it might be a good idea if they spend the winter in the fridge but you are warmer up there maybe they will germinate now and be fine ?

[jarryd]

thanks for the reply brett up here they do need the cold period to help germination, i am just unsure if they will make it untill spring without rotting, or if it will be warm long enough after germination if i plant them out at the end of spring. i have japanese red, mikawa japanese black, another variety of dwarf japanese black, and im being unrealistic with some japanese white haha i love white pines ill give em a go pretty sure they wont last long however

[jarryd]

any help would be great someone out there must be able to help me out

[Jamie]

cold stratification yes definately, as for when to plant them out you should be fine to do it after the 60 days it will be warm enough for them.

jamie

[Bretts]

I have had very high germination rates without stratification. It is debatable whether it is needed with JBP but my propagation book states that % increases with stratification. Not sure why being north changes this but would be interested to hear any thoughts. I have had almost 100% germination without stratification one year but not as good the second year.

But I reckon they will be fine until Spring. Seeds can go a couple of years in the soil before they germinate. I have had Carpinus germinate in the middle of Winter during the warm stratification period (before a cold period). This has happened twice now with seeds I purchased from America. I was happy to have them come to life but I spent the second half of Winter putting them outside every morning to avoid the frost. I have had plenty of species refuse to germinate for me(never pine) so once I have a germinated seed I figure the odds are with me from there.

Damping off will be the biggest threat to the pine seeds. There are many stated cures but I believe the argument that they do nothing to help is pretty strong.
I will check my propagating manual again and see what it states for these species. I think it does mention damping off management.

[dayne]

i have the same problem with some swampy seeds not sure how long the take to germinate if i plant now and the pop up in 3weeks they probly will stall big time in winter and may die so im not sure when to plant

[Jamie]

i would think stratification is needed up here as we dont get a cold period for long enough or cold enough as you do down south, i think they would be fine after the 60days of cold stratification as when they are sown the temps will be warm enough to get them to pop.

im not sure what it is like for the sunny coast and further south during the "colder" months. it might be a bit cooler than where i am.


jamie

[dayne]

just checked the wide bay and sunshine coast are both average winter temps of 10-21 ,9-20 deg
summer 21-30
sunshine coast 18-28 so their about 1-2 deg of eachother but both areas will get frost nights still

[Jamie]

my nights dont tend to get frosty, i have only ever woke up once in 5 odd years to go to work with ice on the screen. but anyways its odd with that ranging temp even being so close down on the coast you can grow tridents alright up here they just sit dormant and die.

[Bretts]

i would think stratification is needed up here as we dont get a cold period for long enough or cold enough as you do down south,

Ah how do I explain this ? When I was suggesting that JBP may not need a stratification period ,then, even though we get cold here unless the seed is damp and placed out in the elements it would not get a cold stratification. Hence if I was to plant JBP seeds here without a cold stratification it would be the same as planting them without a stratification period north of here. Unless I planted in fall and was expecting a natural startification over winter. That is not what I am suggesting. I am suggesting germination starting as soon as they are planted.
I don't see any reason for it not to be the same yet anyway.
Checked the Reference Manual of Woody Plant Propagation by Dirr and Heuser
General notes for Pine state

Seeds of many species germinate satisfactorily without pretreatment, but cold stratification unifies and shortens the time required for germination.

So a commercial application will stratify as this would streamline operations. Yet there is advice that older seed will need a cold stratification period.

In temperate regions pine seeds can be sown in fall or spring. However, it is now common practice to spring sow non dormant species. Dormant seeds are spring sown after cold stratification.

It is a pity they did not expand on this as in non temperate zones but it does state some temperature figures in Lab conditions.
JBP and JRP germinates in fluctuating temps between 20 to 30 degree celsius
When fall sown JWP benefits from a few months warm stratification.
JBP benefits from late April to early may sowing.
JRP benefits from late fall sowing.
Some what confusing but thought that should be noted. Lets see what specific notes for each species states.

Oh and some notes on storage generally state seeds can be kept for a number of years depending on low moisture content and coldness depending on species but states nothing of how long they can be kept in damp conditions such as Jarryd has created at the moment. I figure working out which germination procedure to follow that allows for them to be planted in the near future taking stratification recommendations into account would be the best bet.

(JBP) Pinus Thunbergii.
Cones ripen April to May. Seeds disperse May to June.
Stored successfully for 11 years.
Fresh seed has no pre germination requirement.
Stored seed may require 1 to 2 months cold stratification.
In nursery practice seed is fall or spring sown after 1 or two months cold stratification.
Fall sowing produces better seedlings.

(JRP) Pinus densiflora
Cone ripens Feb- March
Seed dispersal March April
Can be stored for 2-5 years
Seed requires no pre treatment and can be spring sown.

(JWP) Pinus parviflora.
Cones ripen in April and disperses in May
Fresh and stored seed requires 3 months cold stratification. Sow outdoors in January february as this species benefits from a 2-3 month warm period.
From the above general notes that relates to JWP I am guessing this means it like 3 months warm stratification followed by 3 months warm stratification.

So I would suggest. 1 month cold stratification for the JBP and then sow while still warm enough. If I had enough seed I might do this (1/3 now) (1/3 1 month) and (1/3 2 months) and compare results.

Plant the JRP straight away. I think the temps now should see them germinate.

3 Months warm followed by three months Cold and plant in spring for the JWP.

Grant has done this on a nursery scale for many years so it will be interesting to hear his thoughts

Now I have some weeds to pull

[Jamie]

very interesting brett

my thoughts on this are that jarryd has received these seed and not collected, so i am assuming they have been bought, on that i am also assuming that possibly these are not fresh seed, possibly, we hope that the people we buy seeds of or get seeds from tell us truthfully but if bought from places like ebay we cant be so sure. all this is assumption only as jarryd hasnt told us how he got them? that will help

im going from experience so far on this, i bought trident seeds, havent seen a thing, i know these can take a long time to germinate so i am still keeping my tray moist, that was 100 tridents. that included stratification.
i also bought ficus retusa seeds from a different seller and being fig i thought well this might be alright being fig, in qld i was expecting to see something, its been about 4-5 weeks now, nothing, im still holding my breath with them too, albeit i am quite dissappointed but these things happen to.
so it could be how i done it, but i followed the sellers instructions to a T, so i figured the seed may not be viable. dont know the fig seed on the instructions said they didnt need any sort of stratification either, which i find odd as fig usually germinates out of droppings from birds and bats of from the fruit after it has rotted for a bit?

thats just my thoughts, i am sure jarryd will clear up where he got them and we can wipe that of the list.

jamie

edit- what book did you get that from it sounds like an interesting read

[Bretts]

Stated in above thread Jamie

Reference Manual of Woody Plant Propagation by Dirr and Heuser. I was told by several international Bonsai Nurseryman that it is the bible of propagation. It is a good book. It starts out with general information on all the propagation methods followed by what could be described as the notes of propagating nurseryman combined into one book on a very extensive list of woody plants.

About the only difference if the seeds where not fresh would be to give the JBP one extra month of cold but the notes state 1-2 so figure try to get away with 1 to stay in the warmer period to help autumn germination. So again even if not fresh I might try only one month cold. Otherwise might be worth considering cold until it warms up again next season but that will have to be for Jarryd to decide depending on his climate I am thinking?
That's my best educated guess anyway!

Oh I would lean towards the seed not being Viable for the fig at least. I would collect some fig seeds yourself and see how it germinates to compare I don't think it takes long. I just checked the reference manual and funnily it only has two listings for Ficus and that only states propagation notes for cuttings. Guess they don't bother by seed. I have only used fresh Trident seed as I collected it myself and have never had any trouble. I often used it like a mulch pre soaked out of the pool though

Manual states that Acer buergerianum is exceedingly easy. Collect in April and sow out or cold stratify 2-3 months at 4.5 degree celsius. Seeds are virtually 100% sound. Old dry seed has had germination rates of 20% first year but was very heavy the next year.
Pity the buggers don't like fungus

[Jamie]

yea that can be a prob with the fungus getting at them. ahwell it wasnt much spent on them, bit disapointted obviously but will still leave them there just in case

the other thing with fig seed is the seeds are tiny like dust, thats what it looked like to me anyways so it possibly could of been!


jamie

[Bretts]

Thats what all the fig seed I have bought looks like. Never had any germinate though. I have some fruit on my fig now so i should try some fresh stuff.

I haven't thrown my tridents out yet. Only the dead ones