How to grow good bonsai stock like the Japanese nurseries

[Jow]

Some of the earlier attempts have made it into bonsai pots.
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Some great trees / bits of material there Neil! Most of the trees i started at the beginning of this thread were sold as i moved houses so its really interesting to see your material and to be able to track it back though the post timelines.

I will be interested to see what your thoughts are on the speed of your current trees variety (kishu perhaps?) vs. Itoigawa. In my garden i think the itoigawa stock is anywhere up to 10 times faster to thicken / grow. (10 might be an over exaggeration but it is markedly faster by many factors.). This comes with some down sides such as branches thickening if not managed well but overall sees stock developing at a much faster rate.

I might be driving past your place in August, I'll let you know.

Joe.

[Scott Roxburgh]

Nice update pics Neil and Joe.

Good shari development on that one Matt.

None of mine are in bonsai pots, still slowly thickening. I have started a few more including some new Itoigawa which I have managed some nice low twists and bends.

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Yes they need more space...

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[Scott Roxburgh]

Also, these are worth signing up for.
https://www.bonsaify.com/collections/ecourses

Good tips on JBP and these twisty shimpaku.

[SuperBonSaiyan]

Also, these are worth signing up for.
https://www.bonsaify.com/collections/ecourses

Good tips on JBP and these twisty shimpaku.

I was thinking about signing up for those courses. Only problem is I only have young whips, so it'll be hard for me to make the most of the course right now.

[Jow]

I have started a few more including some new Itoigawa which I have managed some nice low twists and bends.

The itoigawa look as thick as the more standard variety of Shimpaku in that collection of pics. Are they the same age?

I am liking your shari development, as i build more stock of these twisty junipers i am becoming more bold with how much shari i do in one hit. Adding a twist to the trunks in the initial wiring also helps a lot to create an interesting shari line.

J

[Jared k]

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I’ve decided to give this a go. I was doing some research and found this thread. I have attached some photos. I’ve got a few more to do. Used some raffia and split the trunk down low. Hopefully it survives.

[Scott Roxburgh]

Not sure on the age of the new Itoigawa (purchased whips), but yeas about the same size, so maybe 3 years old?

I bought 40 x 4 inch starters, wired them all, put light shari on some and some heavy full length shari on others to see what is too far. I had one or two die, but not the large shari ones so I think you can go pretty hard when young.

Good job getting in on the action Jared, try and find some smaller stock to get some more exagerated movement. I did some the size of the one you have wrapped in raffia and the younger stock has caught up in growth and has much better movement.

The below came from bonsai south and have just had their second wiring. The first wire established low bends and twists and this wiring compressed these bends into better shapes. The plan now is repotting into larger pots this year and feed for accelerated growth.

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[shibui]

The first wire established low bends and twists and this wiring compressed these bends into better shapes.

Not sure if I have mentioned it before but I also found that a second bending session can tighten up bends that appeared to be at their limit at the first wiring.

Also note that Scott has wired and bent branches as well as the trunk. I feel that's important too. Straight branches on a twisted trunk look out of place. Even jins look better if they have some bends similar to the trunk and branches so even wire and bend branches that you believe will not be a part of the tree. A little extra time and wire now will pay dividends when it comes to final styling.
Also, at this stage we cannot predict which on the branches will become the extension of the main trunk so wire and bend everything you can, just in case it might be used later.

[Mickeyjaytee]

Hi all, loving the trees and techniques in the thread. It is my new bible. I was wondering if it’s appropriate to ask questions about Shimpaku here or, do I stick to the general Q&A thread? If not please feel free to move this post!

I had some questions in regards to David Nassars latest video which can be found here;

https://youtu.be/lhfaS1Mrz3M

My interest comes from foliage pads and the trimming back the new growth foliage whips to keep the pads clean and uniform. Does repeated use of this method weaken the tree over time? I think that the ‘cloud foliage’ would also begin to age and weaken and not be as effective of photosynthesis. How is this remedied?

My own thoughts would be to eventually let some of the shoots elongate, then give them a little trim back and allow that new foliage to broaden and ramify thus allowing it to start replacing the other older foliage on the pads by removing the old growth. Is this what is practiced or is there a way you could share that is correct? Otherwise, is backbudding allowed which will be brought forward to replace the older foliage? If old foliage needs to be removed, how many seasons can you get away with just trimming the new shoots before the plant starts to decline?

Lastly, is there a page or spreadsheet that tells you all about how Shimpaku grow and develop (Not just as bonsai, the plant itself), what to watch out for and what months to do this in. From what I gather, bending in winter, repot towards the end of spring (3rd month of spring I think) and trimming after the new growth has hardened off in summer and autumn.

Any help on this would be amazing. Thank you

[Jow]

Hi mickey,

Typing on my phone so sorry for the short response.

Essentially all the growing tips across the pad will extend maybe 1mm a year keeping the tips always youthful.

To keep pads from growing out of shape to quickly we prune back any extension shoots that emerge from pads (the type of growth you circled).

Pads, even with 1mm or so of extension a year will slowly grow too large and need reduction. This is done by fostering inner buds and cutting tips back to these shoots when required to bring the silhouette back in.

I dont know of a spreadsheet like you mention, best bet is to find someone who has trees you admire in your area /climate and ask them. Clubs can be a good resource but there are also many knowledgeable growers on this site. That said many of the concepts are best explained in the flesh/foliage.

Joe

[shibui]

Shimpaku seem to have 2 different growths. Some shoots take off quickly and develop into the longer shoots you've shown. I've seen this referred to as 'runners'. I've read some growers say that it is important to allow branches to grow some runners to keep them healthy but that may just be personal opinion (like much of bonsai) rather than absolute fact.
The rest of the shoots seem to remain short, only growing a few mm or so in a year.

As Jow pointed out, the quicker growing runners will soon make your foliage pads untidy so they are usually cut sooner. I do tend to allow some to grow for a few weeks before trimming back but not sure if that's essential. They will definitely need to be dealt with at some stage during the growing season.
Even a couple of mm length on the smaller shoots will eventually spoil the foliage pads. It seems to sneak up quicker than I expect on the smaller trees I have.
Both longer runners and shorter shoots will usually have some side shoots that are green and growing. That's where we cut or pinch back to. Foliage pads are constantly growing larger than desired then being trimmed back to slightly undersize then growing out again. This is the procedure with all types of bonsai.
Even where a shimpaku shoot has no side branches it can still produce them from the base of any healthy needle - very similar to pines and even deciduous. Nipping or pruning the tip out of a shoot will stimulate buds that will develop into new growing tips. Unlike deciduous, junipers are not so good at developing buds on older, bare branches so only prune as far as green if you want the shoot/branch/trunk to continue to grow.

Maintaining and developing inner buds and shoots in vital to juniper maintenance so there's plenty of healthy shoots to take over when we trim the longer ones.

Many stock shimpaku, and those that have been developed quickly or in the ground, come with long, bare branches. While it is hard to get new shoots on bare branches it is quite common for new shoots to emerge at any junctions - sometimes referred to as 'crotch growth' so it is possible to replace longer, bare branches. New shoots like this develop much better when the tree is happy and healthy so if you need back budding on shimpaku, first feed it well and give optimum conditions for a year or more to get the tree strong before pruning.

Not sure if that Jow or myself have answered the questions fully. As he said, it is much, much easier to show and tell than to write theoretically.

[treeman]

My interest comes from foliage pads and the trimming back the new growth foliage whips to keep the pads clean and uniform. Does repeated use of this method weaken the tree over time? I think that the ‘cloud foliage’ would also begin to age and weaken and not be as effective of photosynthesis. How is this remedied?

I don't know if this has already been mentioned, but a method which works well for me is to pinch all the extensions as usual over the growing period (which is very long). This develops the clouds everyone wants. Then at the end of the growing season once/year or at the most every two years, go in and remove up to 50% or more of the congested growth and shorten any shoot that is too long back to a healthy side shoot further down. If you can then see the all the inner parts of the tree right up to the fine branches, it means light is getting in where it needs to be. The tree may look at bit bare for a while but springs back with vigour when the warm weather returns. Then the pinching starts again. Failing to do this severe thinning will lead to branches extending out further and further with the inner leaves dying off through lack of light. Of course the tree needs to be well fed and kept in full sun at all times for this to be effective. A preventative spray of copper oxychloride or similar after trimming is a good policy.

[Mickeyjaytee]

Thanks so much for clearing that up everyone. I am really grateful. Treeman, I looked up the copper oxychloride and can only find copper ammonium complex from Yates. Is this the same thing or does it have the same effect?

Thank you!

[treeman]

Thanks so much for clearing that up everyone. I am really grateful. Treeman, I looked up the copper oxychloride and can only find copper ammonium complex from Yates. Is this the same thing or does it have the same effect?

Thank you!

Yes that's fine.

[Jow]

This thread has become very juniper heavy so i thought this little pine might break things up a bit.

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