Rules were meant to be broken

[Bretts]

Yes but this manipulation is done with an understanding of the rules not by forgetting them I believe the rules are written with this intention so it is not breaking them. Just as manipulating an algebra equation if you break the rules of algebra you get the wrong answer but the more you understand the rules the more you can manipulate the equation within them.

It may be a small difference but it allows people to teach that we should forget the rules once we learn them to encourage imagination. I think this is silly! I think the opposite it is with an exceptional understanding of the rules that we can bring our imagination to life.

[Pup]

Now I know why I can't do Bonsai that bloody math thing again.

On Monday night at the club meet, Nigel our president of vice, gave a talk on. Bonsai and Art, he like a lot of us believe it is an art form.

He spoke of the golden section and the 1/3rd 2/3rds of Bonsai and Bonsai display. It was very interesting, looking round the room I did see some members squirming, some were even a sleep. Unfortunately these are the ones that should have been listening.

It brought back to me the importance of math, it also brought to me once you know it, it is always there in your subconscious. You apply it with out much thought to it.
That is what I am trying to say.
Is that once you know the Guidelines in Bonsai you subconsciously apply them, some times bending them a little or as in this case a lot. The tree's are still worthy of the show are they not.

So you don't forget the ( rules ) guidelines you just apply them differently, when you know them.

Pup

[Bretts]

I guess I can live with most of that Pup. I really think it is the wrong impression to suggest that we need to forget the rules to get imaginative. Yes the better you get the less you need to get out the ruler and the interpretation of the rules gets better but that is very different to forgetting the rules. I remember a mate that wanted to learn how to be a song writer but when he took a song writing course he complained that there should be no rules to writing a song and quit
He could not see any benefit to learning about verses and chorus arrangement. It would spoil his creative side he believed well he never turned into a song writer My favourite music artist these days are the old guys that are still producing new music. You can hear the mastery of the art that only comes from many years of composing. The songs take on such depth that takes a long time to go stale.
I also have a bonsai friend that is very learned in the fine arts from the best teachers and very accomplished artist in various mediums and is dead against the rules of bonsai. He has a notion that you should draw a cow how you see it and not as someone tells you to draw it The problem is I have no skill or knowledge to draw the cow as I see it so it looks like a stupid drawing of a cow and nothing like what I see in the cow How can I draw the cow as I see it if I have no understanding of forming shapes and perception?
I ask him if his art work has been improved by his vast learning in the fine arts and he reluctantly agrees but still sees no reason to understand or become learned in the design principles of bonsai.

[Bretts]

If anyone is intrested here are a couple of articles on the Golden section that Pup was talking about.
http://www.bonsaisolutions.com.au/advan ... sai_1.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio

[Bretts]

And a debatable list of the rules.
http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/rules.htm

[Chris]

Thanks bretts some good reading.

[Jamie]

And a debatable list of the rules.
http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/rules.htm

there is a few things in that list that is debatable bretts. interesting to read, yet still some things that are controversial as it states in one of the rules. actually two of them.

1. Soils should be uniform, not layered. (New rule, you will still find controversy).
2. Fertilize full strength. (New rule, there will be controversy).



i find fertilizing full strength in potted culture can cause problems like reverse osmosis. which then needs to be reversed by this rule.

3. Water from above, not by submerging the bonsai, this will prevent the buildup of salts.

and i dont understand how this method can cause build up of salts?

any way just a couple of things i spotted, i still found it quite interesting

regards jamie

[Asus101]

3. Water from above, not by submerging the bonsai, this will prevent the buildup of salts.

and i dont understand how this method can cause build up of salts?

any way just a couple of things i spotted, i still found it quite interesting

regards jamie

Watering from above flushes the salts through, where submerging pushes those in the soil to the top then dragging them back into the pot.

[Jarrod]

Watering from above allows salts to be flushed from the pot. I only water from above with tank water.

Rules, shouldn't be called rules, guidelines are a far better name. If all trees used these "rules" then bonsai would become boring for me! I do think the guidelines are useful in deciding what stock will become a good tree but the fun part is bending the rules to make something unique!

Keep bending the rules with wire everyone!

[Bretts]

Lots to debate here for sure.
I had heard layering the soil was not much good but I am now doing it for the first time with Akadama who knows?

I think fertilising full strength is the right thing to do. If a house plant can handle it why not a tree? Some poeple build a tree up to take alot of fertiliser but don't experiment on any tree you are scared of losing.

I don't believe there is any issue with submerge watering in fact I think it can do a better job than surface watering. The water and air is replaced in both instances but I think submerging replaces more as it ensures total saturation and everything is replaced. This theory is only opinion as no one has really tested it.

Jarrod the rules will not make bonsai boring in fact it is the ones that master them the best that will make the most intresting bonsai
The rules are only there to help you build your creation not restrict it.

[Asus101]

There a a few things you could consider rules, one being "do not dictate a style to the tree, let the tree dictate its style".
I think its the most important thing to remember and its one of the most broken, very very rarely with good or even pleasing results. One thing springs to mind is excessive dead wood where there should not be.

[Bretts]

I find this far from rules Aus but taste you speak of.

Call them rules call them design principles the fact is that they work and should be studied not forgoten or ignored. Your Bonsai will only get better from the fact.

[Jamie]

If anyone is intrested here are a couple of articles on the Golden section that Pup was talking about.
http://www.bonsaisolutions.com.au/advan ... sai_1.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio

some interesting reading there brett.
especially the bonsai solutions site, the golen ratio etc. i found it quite enlightening, even without fully understanding it.
going through its articles reading about the visual movements and foreshortening which is something that is quite commonly used in bonsai which i do myself.
this is opening my eyes to the fact that these rules arent rules but guidlines as stated that the more you understand the better you can percieve the art.
understanding the design principals doesnt mean the "rules" are broken or even bent as such. it is taking the guides as a free for of ideal environment to which you can create something as naturally as possibly in the concept of what nature does. ie. the golden ratio is found in nature so often in trees, that why cant this be applied to our hobby in bonsai?
i know it isnt something that is stuck to 100% but used as a guideline it creates a more visualy dynamic, more natural flowing, right looking tree, where to go beyond these guide lines it to take something that looks right, to something that doesnt look quite right.
the visual movement and placement of a tree on display is placed where it looks more natural, if the movement is flowing to the left then the tree will be placed to the right hand side. i understand this, it creates a more natural feel as to where its placed. negative spacings seems to be a key in this situation.

this is what i am getting any way, might be a bit off the subject but this is why i am involving myself in this conversation as i would like to discuss this and learn more about it

regards jamie:D

[Pup]

Brett I think our little repartee is finally getting to the crux. You have advocated the design principals for a long time.
Now we have members understanding that, philosophy and hopefully discuss it more.

That way we all benefit JUST remember this Art form has been practised for many centuries by, the Chinese Koreans Japanese.
Then the western world, who do not understand, naturally Wabi Sabi.

So we needed those that were handed down from father to son to grandson as a natural progression. To be formalised which they were for exhibition purposes.

Then interpreted by the western world.

A Couple of years ago may be more, Robert Steven the well known Indonesian bonsai teacher was here in WA.
His opening gambit was.
The Japanese have got it wrong, he lost a lot of his audience at that point, he did try to get them back. He did not.

So you must understand those ( rules ) guidelines at all times, and also your audience. Never talk down to them.

Here we are not talking directly we are typing, so we have to be doubly careful as we post. So as not to push just our point of view but what is relevant.
To the discussion that way as I said at the beginning we all benefit from this.
Pup

[EdwardH]

I find that when we interpret rules ridgidly that we end up with boring trees as there is little room for creativity let alone artistic flair. Rules give us a sure foundation to work on however if we add some insight or understanding to these rules then we obtain a far more natural result. Think of good dancers - you don't see them counting 1..2..3.. to the music however they all learned to count at some stage.
On a slight tangent, is Kokofu a distant cousin of Tofu