SUPERTHRIVE vs RHIZOTONIC & ROOTS EXCELURATOR

[63pmp]

Thanks for your reply Bougy, I try and stay respectful, it just comes out all negative and narky.

Luke, I have trees in all stages of growth, from one year old cuttings to 40 year olds in bonsai pots. I have trees n the ground and others in styro boxes. All in different stages of development.

These products pop up all the time for hydroponics, horticulture and agriculture; care needs to be taken when considering if they are a benefit as most are just snake oil.

I call anything that cost $30/250 mL expensive. Also these products tend to oxidise quickly so they won't last a life time.

I disagree that root growth mirrors above ground growth, there are circumstances when root growth will outstrip above ground growth, and vice versa. Phosphate deficiency is one of them. Plants grow roots depending on nutrient needs, if they are deficient they tend to grow leggy to find the nutrients they need(it's a generalisation, I know). Above ground growth also tends to dictate root growth, hormones from buds stimulate root growth, but the growth is balanced and there are feedback mechanisms so roots don't get ahead of the branches, and vice versa. I don't believe roots drive above ground growth, root and stem growth is dependent on carbohydrate production, which is dependent on the plant having the requisite amount of nutrient elements, watger and sunlight. If a nutrient is deficient, all the roots in the world won't improve that limiting elements uptake.

The products you mention are root stimulants, or protectants, they aren't nutrients. These products force trees to produce roots by simulating hormonal initiators. As I mentioned this is all well and good for hydroponic plants that generally have smallish root masses and nutrients on tap with plenty of room for growth, not necessarily good for tree species in pots. From my experience with hydroponic guys, they know lots about growing dope, not much about growing maples, or beech, etc. The hydroponics arena is full of snake oil salesman wanting $40 a litre for 2 dollars worth of chemicals.

I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your original post but to me it sounded like you were recommending them. I personaly can't see any real benefit to trees, but I'd welcome some discussion to try and change my mind .

Regards

Paul

[Rintar]

So if these are mostly to increase root growth they may be still handy for encouraging a root over rock??

J


aka RIn

[63pmp]

Rin,

Usually you have roots before you put the tree on a rock. Then tie/bind/fix the roots to the rock. If you want to thicken the roots in a hurry, then yes, you could use one of these products to stimulate root growth. The difference here is its being used for a specific root orientated purpose. Just use a BIG pot.

Paul

[krittas]

great thread to read..it is up to the individual in which way they go " to use it or not" everyone is always after that little bit of advantage and it seems to be a great way to help newly developing trees..after reading threads on superthrive on this forum i went out to the hydro shop and brought a small bottle and used it on my figs and you could see the differance (there was fruit growing on the them in days) technology and the way we do things is always advancing so why not...

Good on you for trying something and shareing that information to us all rather then sitting behind a screen and just talking about it (not haveing a go at anyone..)
I look forward to seeing how it turns out...maybe some pics to document it may help

[Luke308]

Thanks for your reply Bougy, I try and stay respectful, it just comes out all negative and narky.

Luke, I have trees in all stages of growth, from one year old cuttings to 40 year olds in bonsai pots. I have trees n the ground and others in styro boxes. All in different stages of development.

These products pop up all the time for hydroponics, horticulture and agriculture; care needs to be taken when considering if they are a benefit as most are just snake oil.

I call anything that cost $30/250 mL expensive. Also these products tend to oxidise quickly so they won't last a life time.

I disagree that root growth mirrors above ground growth, there are circumstances when root growth will outstrip above ground growth, and vice versa. Phosphate deficiency is one of them. Plants grow roots depending on nutrient needs, if they are deficient they tend to grow leggy to find the nutrients they need(it's a generalisation, I know). Above ground growth also tends to dictate root growth, hormones from buds stimulate root growth, but the growth is balanced and there are feedback mechanisms so roots don't get ahead of the branches, and vice versa. I don't believe roots drive above ground growth, root and stem growth is dependent on carbohydrate production, which is dependent on the plant having the requisite amount of nutrient elements, watger and sunlight. If a nutrient is deficient, all the roots in the world won't improve that limiting elements uptake.

The products you mention are root stimulants, or protectants, they aren't nutrients. These products force trees to produce roots by simulating hormonal initiators. As I mentioned this is all well and good for hydroponic plants that generally have smallish root masses and nutrients on tap with plenty of room for growth, not necessarily good for tree species in pots. From my experience with hydroponic guys, they know lots about growing dope, not much about growing maples, or beech, etc. The hydroponics arena is full of snake oil salesman wanting $40 a litre for 2 dollars worth of chemicals.

I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your original post but to me it sounded like you were recommending them. I personaly can't see any real benefit to trees, but I'd welcome some discussion to try and change my mind .

Regards

Paul

You certainly seem to understand plant physiology better than I do. But that being said nutrient deficiency should never be a problem for people like myself who use diatomite and zeolite and use a heavy fertilizer regime. I never mentioned not using your regular fertilizer/nutrient regime, but I should have perhaps mentioned that you should continue fertilizing as often as before. I am wondering though if the extra roots will allow more nutrient uptake and therefore you could fertilize more frequently???

I don't believe that any of the products I have mentioned are "snake oil" as you have referred to, but in this instance I think we will have to agree to disagree.

The products I mentioned are loosely referred to as nutrients as that is what the Hydro crowd call them, and even on some of the websites relating to the products they are listed under the heading of "nutrients". That is neither important nor relevant, as all I am concerned about is if they do as they are designed to do, and they can benefit me in some way.

I think having healthy roots which are resistant to fungi and disease is important in any type of plant growth whether that be pot culture, hydro, or ground growth so I think these products should not be overlooked or discounted because they are originally designed for hydroponics.

I am sure you mentioned something about increasing internodes, but I can't find it to quote you. The other product I was referring to at the end of my initial post is a growth stimulant which will double your growth according to the manufacturer (two weeks growth in one week) without stretching internodal growth. I was warned to be careful with this one though as it can severely affect pH, and the pH should be checked before use. Obviously I can't use this til the growing season, but I will be interested to compare on cuttings of the same age/size.

I am not trying to persuade you or change your mind in any way, I am just putting it out there that I am trying something different, and sharing my findings for you to make up your own mind. I even linked the company websites so you could make an informed decision to see if the products could benefit you.
I think in future I will not share finding products like this as it seems like no matter how good or bad the product is someone is going to have a difference of opinion which is fine, but I would prefer not to have to defend my reasoning and have a debate.

[Mojo Moyogi]

Interesting thread.

Just briefly, the best tonic that I have ever seen applied to roots is AFP, it is widely available, inexpensive and scientifically proven effective in developing healthy root systems that are disease resistant, fibrous and vigorous. Sadly, many bonsai growers both in Australia and overseas are too ignorant to utilise it and produce weak, disease prone trees of little value.

Cheers,
Mojo

[Rintar]

Hay Mono can you please post a link adress or full name of AFP I tried google all I got was hundreds of cereal police casses even with tonic and then adding tree. Plant tonic gave me ginko Info.


Cheers Rin

[Rintar]

Air Filled Porosity AFP should have searched AB first.... Search is my friend k will read up on it when I get home from work..... Midnight grrrr

[BonsaiElmo]

I think they are referring to air-filled porosity... just best result I found through google

(should have refreshed page before posting)

[Mojo Moyogi]

Yes! Air Filled Porosity.

Simple. Effective. Potent. Available. Vital.


Cheers,
Mojo

[Rintar]

Thanks mojo at least winter is a good time for reading and kearning. I think come the warmer weather ill be a little busy and not on here 5- 12 times a day

[63pmp]

Luke,

I think in future I will not share finding products like this as it seems like no matter how good or bad the product is someone is going to have a difference of opinion which is fine, but I would prefer not to have to defend my reasoning and have a debate.

If only things were so simple. When you put out a long post and conclude that you recommend a certain product you will inevitably get someone questioning the post. This is an open and public forum, anything you put up is open to question; it’s how you react to that, which is the problem. You can either see this as a negative or a positive. You can choose to learn something or just bury your head. Not so long ago such a post as this would have created a flame war, I think it’s interesting, now, that hardly anyone has commented on it. And more is the pity because it’s through comment and response that the best information and opportunity for learning is presented in a forum. (not that it was my intention to start a flame war). I guess it’s the sign of things that people want to make comments but not be responsible for them.
The reason I commented was I wanted to know why you think these products would be good for bonsai, as you had not clarified that. I can see reasons why they may not be good or appropriate for growing bonsai, and I put these forth so they could be accepted or denied.

My comment regarding snake oil is that the hydroponics industry has lots of them. If you hang around the hydroponic forums you will see that the products you are discussing get mixed reviews, and there are many products in hydroponics that are just snake oil, just colored water in a bottle promising excellent growth. If you think I meant your products you are mistaken, just generally other hydroponic products. (A great example is the selenium craze, it was discovered that selenium is an essential plant nutrient, and hydroponics people jumped on it, all the companies adding selenium to their solutions. But it’s only essential if your plants are fed urea, as selenium is required to make a coenzyme for the breakdown of urea in plant tissue. I don’t know of any hydroponics nutrient solutions that use urea. So why is it there? It’s a selling point. Its costs nothing to put into the solution, but gives the producer a great selling point).

In fact I see no reason why these H&G products won’t work. Hormones that influence plant growth have been used in the agricultural and nursery business for years. They use stimulants and suppressants, as well as deny nutrients to control growth/fruiting/flowering to get the plant/product to a marketable size. So these products from H&G probably do what they claim; the point is, is it viable for bonsai, or any TREE in a pot. Not dope or some vegetable in a trough. I want to know why you think they worthwhile for bonsai.

But that being said nutrient deficiency should never be a problem for people like myself who use diatomite and zeolite and use a heavy fertilizer regime

Why should diatomite and zeolite protect you from nutrient deficiency? They will provide a good AFP if you are using appropriate particle size (but so will crushed glass) though neither of these products supply any of the other essential plant nutrients in any appreciable way. Additionally, a heavy fertilizer regime may not in fact be supplying the necessary elements. I don’t know what you use, but if you bought it from a hardware store, it is highly unlikely to be providing the nutritional elements your plants require. But fertilizing is off topic and best left to another time. (Bearing in mind that heavy root growth will reduce a potting mixes AFP, requiring more frequent repotting of the plant)

Finally, if you want to increase root mass in your plants then why not fertilize with a nitrate based fertilizer? Nitrate is known to stimulate root branching and is comparatively cheap (20Kg of K-nitrate is around $30.00, a ½ teaspoon in 9L of water is all that is needed)

Regards

Paul

[Mojo Moyogi]

Hi Paul, Luke and readers.

On the snake oil comment, are there any non-bonsai commercial nurseries that use SuperThrive? I have never felt the need to justify using SuperThrive, but I know of people that swear by it, I know those that say it is just good old back of the truck fairground tonic from the U S of A and does nothing that Seasol can't do for less. Is SuperThive a backyard gardener's tonic or is it the secret elixir of commercial growers around the world?

Finally, if you want to increase root mass in your plants then why not fertilize with a nitrate based fertilizer? Nitrate is known to stimulate root branching and is comparatively cheap (20Kg of K-nitrate is around $30.00, a ½ teaspoon in 9L of water is all that is needed) Paul

I work at a hydroponic vegetable farm and years ago they hired a "hydroponic nutrition consultant" to formulate a crop specific series of feeds. The service was very expensive, as were the specialised feeds that were prescribed by the consultant. Initially the farm management was satisfied with the growth results obtained by the feeding regimen, but they had concerns about the costs involved with buying the 6 pre-made imported fertilisers. Gradually, by trial and error and with the help of an agronomist that they hired, they were able to develop 3 of their own hydroponic feed mixes based on ordinary dry agricultural fertilisers such as Calcium Nitrate, Potassium Nitrate, Mono Ammonium Phosphate, Mono Potassium Phosphate etc. that were 1/8 the cost of the off the shelf imported feeds and just as effective.

My previous comments in this thread regarding AFP were pretty general and were aimed at nobody in particular but widely at the bonsai growers/hobbyists (myself included in the past) that I see on the net that are busy fiddling with plant nutrition, while paying little attention to texture, composition and structural integrity of growing media to achieve ideal AFP, nor containers that can assist AFP rather than impede it (Google "Air Pruning"). To translate, you could have a room full of scientists working day and night to develop the best bonsai feed imaginable, but if you are growing your trees in poor growing media, you may as well be feeding your trees with tomato soup.

I realise that AFP diminishes over time as root growth displaces air in the pore spaces of a growing media, requiring more frequent re-potting. More frequent re-potting could lead to more fibrous root pads and better root ramification, which would be a good thing.

Cheers,
Mojo

[Luke308]

Hi Paul and Mojo,

Thanks for your replies. I am happy to have a discussion about this, especially if it means someone (hopefully myself ) can learn something from it.

Paul, you obviously have your head around plant physiology as I previously mentioned. I have never studied horticulture nor plant sciences, it fact I have only picked up bits and pieces since undertaking the journey that is bonsai.

But that being said nutrient deficiency should never be a problem for people like myself who use diatomite and zeolite and use a heavy fertilizer regime

Why should diatomite and zeolite protect you from nutrient deficiency?

I feel like you took that out of context, or only took half of what I was trying to say. Maybe I should have been clearer in what I was getting at. What I was trying to say is that being I use a modern substrate, I also have a heavy fert regime. I hate to think how many different fertilizers in the shed atm, and I use a different one each time to give my trees a balanced diet. I use both organic and chemical, but I refuse to use slow release but that is another topic also. During the grow season I mainly use ferts high in nitrogen, and in autumn/ early winter I use a 0.13.15 NPK or a lower N fert but I am still experimenting with that also.

I totally agree there are many snake oil nutrients out there, but the point of this thread was to A) inform people of these products, B) see if anyone has used them before, C) share feedback, both positive and negative, and D) talk about the pros and cons of using such products. I wasn't so much recommending the rock supercharge, but more so the rhizotonic as I still think that has a place in bonsai (both established at re-potting, cutting and seed germination and pre-bonsai or yamadori re-potting). I believe I said make up your own mind if they can be of any use to you. I still stand by my thoughts on using the supercharge root tonic for pre-bonsai, and trying to establish yamadori, but in saying that I am not preaching to the world that they do wonders. I am saying in theory it makes sense to me, and I will find out in the long run when I have the chance to see the difference in roots come re-potting time. I will also start another experiment with cuttings the same age, and use Rock supercharge on only one of the 2. If I can get enough cuttings to strike, I will also do the same for rhizotonic, and the other growth product I have briefly mentioned.

I totally agree with mojo on AFP, however there is only so much AFP one can have in an established bonsai due to having such a small pot size. this morning I posted a couple of videos of Walter Pall talking about modern substrates, and he clearly explains that roots need oxygen to survive and that modern substrates go hand in hand with watering and fertilizing. viewtopic.php?f=12&t=12088


Thats all for now as my head hurts from thinking

Luke

[harry]

These kinds of threads are always the ones that cause a lot of angst. I do note that a lot has been posted by members who have been doing Bonsai for a while and have tried these products while others have only read or have been doing Bonsai for a short period of time.

That word TIME is very important reading is good, but actually trialing to prove your theory is much better.

So then after say 4 years of proof one way or tother you can make a valid point one way or tother.

This is just my for what it is worth.

harry