AusBonsai

Hi guys,

As I have mentioned previously in other posts I have been investigating the use of Hydroponic nutrients for bonsai use (mainly trees in early development).

I have come across 3 really great products, and I would like to know if anyone has had any experience with them? I am listing them according to their qualities (starting with good, better, and finally best) as per the bloke at Glandore Hydro recommendations (he sells all products so I dont think he is biased. He also uses both Rhizotonic (better) and Roots Excelurator (best)

Firstly is Rock Supercharge Root tonic http://www.rocknutrients.com/index.php/ ... product/35 which I have been trialling over the last 6 or so weeks. I was given a couple of sample bottles of this so I thought I would try this first. "Supercharge stimulates root growth by antagonizing the plants immune system causing the plant to produce excess roots to replace roots that it perceives are being attacked. Supercharge also conditions the root zone by displacing unwanted salts and replacing them with chelating organic compounds that revitalize root media. Using Supercharge in your system throughout the entire grow and flower cycle will guarantee your roots will develop to their maximum potential. This will enable the plant to absorb more nutrient easily and with the root zone conditioning your roots will always by white, healthy and problem free.

It is a cheap product at around $40 per litre and I have to say it works wonders! I have picked up 2 of the trees I have in foam boxes from the ground and found that the roots had found their way into the ground. Okay this is nothing new you say? well whilst I was pruning them back I noticed that they not only were protruding through the existing holes in the base of the foam box, but they had actually punched their way THROUGH THE FOAM!!!! The 2 trees I noticed this with were and olive and a Pinus pinaster (maritime pine). I think considering the time of year getting that sort of root growth speaks wonders about the product. I'm now keen to try the other products that the Hydro bloke says are even better!

Secondly is a product called Rhizotonic http://www.canna-uk.com/rhizotonic http://www.canna.com.au/rhizotonic which I think could be used in place of SUPERTHRIVE which the bloke at Glandore Hydroponics http://glandorehydro.com/ agreed with (and he has SUPERTHRIVE for sale too) Rhizotonic is around $25-30 per 250ml which is fairly reasonable considering what it can do for our plants.

"CANNA RHIZOTONIC is a powerful, algae based, vegetative stimulator for plant roots. It contains multiple vitamins and is 100% natural. RHIZOTONIC adds more than 60 microbiological substances that considerably speed up the growth of a balanced root environment. Various trace elements and vitamins such as B1&B2 have been added to RHIZOTONIC in order to stimulate the plant production of hormones and root growth, thus providing better and stronger roots.

Benefits of CANNA RHIZOTONIC:

Stimulates new root growth on cuttings and transplants.
Besides stimulating root growth on plants that are already rooted, RHIZOTONIC also stimulates new root growth on cuttings and transplants. The various trace elements and vitamins such as B1&B2 stimulate the production of hormones and root growth, thus providing beautiful, strong white roots.
Speeds up the germination process when used to soak seeds prior to planting.
If you dilute RHIZOTONIC (4ml/1 litre), you can use it to soak seeds. RHIZOTONIC softens up the seed skin, making it easier for the seed to burst and germinate.
Enhances overall plant growth and chemical reactions in the plant to ensure a healthier, powerful and stronger plant.
Good results start with a healthy plant. Because RHIZOTONIC stimulates root growth, it improves the strength of a plant. This is especially important during the first weeks of a plant's life, since young plants are the most vulnerable. RHIZOTONIC stimulates further root development, increases the plant’s resistance to diseases and promotes its inner and outer strength.
Aids in the recovery process of any plant or cutting that has been subjected to stress in any way whatsoever.
Many growers agree that plants recover much quicker from stress situations if the leaves have been sprayed with RHIZOTONIC. Such stress situations could for example occur during transport and re-potting plants. RHIZOTONIC will also improve plants that are unhealthy or poorly developed.

Furthermore, RHIZOTONIC is often sprayed on leaves and can be used as a simple means for raising the pH level in fertiliser tanks.

RHIZOTONIC can be used regardless of the type of medium. It is suitable for cultivation in potting mix and hydro culture. You can use it during the whole growth cycle. From seed to harvest!"


The final and most expensive (and the best so I have read in reviews and been told by Hydro growers and orchid growers) is Roots Excelurator by House and Garden http://www.house-garden.com.au/products ... urator.php It sells for around $110 for 250ml which is a lot, but it is used in very diluted amounts 0.3ml per litre. "House & Garden Roots Excelurator creates a film around the roots, which functions as a kind of membrane. It keeps harmful diseases and germs out of the root zone, but allows the absorption of nutrient. Roots Excelurator also isolates the micro organisms which create root disease and stops their reproduction" This sounds great as it would prevent having to use fungarid or similar products as it is a preventative not a treatment. "This powerful root stimulator ensures the explosive growth of the roots, ridding the plant of brown sick roots and destroying root mould instantly. Roots Excelurator encourages rapid root development in the early stages of the plant’s growth and also acts as an effective guard against root disease in all hydroponic systems. Roots Excelurator is a must have for every successful grower. Roots Excelurator has a very low dilution rate and ml for ml is the cheapest product of this type on the market." This is another great selling point as if you have lots of healthy white roots, you will have lots of healthy top growth.


In summary I would definitely recommend Rock Supercharge as I have personally seen this work wonders, but I would also consider getting some Rhizotonic to use in reducing transplant shock, and aid in success of striking cuttings and for all-round plant health. As mentioned previously Rhizotonic can substitute SUPERTHRIVE which is a big claim but if Hydro and Orchid growers are using it I'm am certain it is worthwhile.

One more thing... I was also given sample of CLONE START by CX hydroponics http://www.cxhydroponics.com/products/clone-start which I cant use until mid spring but I will post about its strike rate as soon as I can. I was also given samples of Rock Absorbalight http://www.rocknutrients.com/index.php/ ... product/29 which seems like an interesting product but I cant use this til spring either

There is one more product I have got, but I will wait until I have used it in spring as the Hydro bloke gave me strict warnings about using it carefully and adjusting pH.

So there is some food for thought, you can make up your own mind if any of these would benefit you. I think they can benefit bonsai growers, especially those with pre-bonsai or trainers. I would recommend following directions to the letter (get a pipette to measure) and don't try these on your most prized trees first.

Hi Luke 308
have you had any experience or any info on whether any of these products are good for orchid culture

reddoggy wrote:Hi Luke 308
have you had any experience or any info on whether any of these products are good for orchid culture

Yes apparently they sell a lot to orchid growers, however I was the first enquiringly about using these for bonsai. Any queries ask your local hydro dealer or talk to the guys at glandore hydro.

Hi Luke, good on you for trying something different mate, it would be great if you can document you trialing so we can see how it fares.

Thanks for sharing Luke, I like the sound of rhizotonic

Craig wrote:Hi Luke, good on you for trying something different mate, it would be great if you can document you trialing so we can see how it fares.

Thanks Craig, I will be documenting my trials during spring and summer when I can compare Rock supercharge on cuttings from the same parent. I will also document absorbalight, clone start and the one I'm keeping under my hat atm. If the results are significant or worth sharing I will certainly share. Although a side-by-side comparison between two tree/cuttings is probably not enough to convince most of you. I have been using superthrive and to be honest I cant say I have noticed any difference, but then again I haven't lost a tree since even when transplanting at the wrong time of year. So I am unsure how I will compare any of the root tonics as they all happen under the soil line and I wont know until repotting time. Rest assured I will take photos and record growth stats regardless.

Hi Luke

I use Rhizo and Superthrive and they both work very well, apparently the main difference between the two as I was told from my sources, is that Rhizo can be used as a foliar fertilizer and Superthrive is more a stimulant not a feed. All I know is both products work well for me, and I alternate the usage on both products, there's a guy on youtube that uses superthrive in his fertilizer cakes not sure how well they work but here's the link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKXjBAeE ... 5C542DF35B

that's my 2 cents

Cheers
Ben

Ben10000 wrote:Hi Luke

I use Rhizo and Superthrive and they both work very well, apparently the main difference between the two as I was told from my sources, is that Rhizo can be used as a foliar fertilizer and Superthrive is more a stimulant not a feed. All I know is both products work well for me, and I alternate the usage on both products, there's a guy on youtube that uses superthrive in his fertilizer cakes not sure how well they work but here's the link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKXjBAeE ... 5C542DF35B

that's my 2 cents

Cheers
Ben

Correct me if I am wrong, but I was of the understanding that rhizotonic is NOT a fertilizer, but can be applied to the foliage as a means of the plant (or tree) absorbing it quicker when the plant has been subject to shock or stress. If it was a fertilizer it would have a NPK rating which as far as I know it doesn't.

Like I said please feel free to correct me, but I am only passing on info I have read on Canna's website and from talking to people who sell it. Personally I would not waste my money with both superthrive and Rhizo, as they are too similar a product yet Rhizo seems to offer more in my opinion.

lol well there you go, maybe I was just being coerced into spending more than I should have, but yes Rhizo does not have a NPK rating on the bottle, so I guess your right.

Hi Luke308, I don't know if it is the same product, but G.Potter from Kaizenbonsai is promoting/selling this product...
RHIZOTONIC BONSAI GROWTH STIMULANT
Rhizotonic root booster should be used on bonsai still suffering ill effects of winter or slow to recover from re-potting. Rhizotonic unique formula is fantastic at encouraging new root growth whether applied to ailing trees, cuttings, air layers or seeds. We have regular feedback from our customers testifying to the efficacy of Rhizotonic.
Available in a handy 250ml measuring bottle.

...more is written about how they use it and in what situations as well as a couple of other products here...http://www.kaizenbonsai.com/shop/produc ... ts_id=2461
I have no experience with this product, nor have I any affiliation or vested interest in kaizen bonsai, but I thought it may be relevent to your thread?
Mods, if this info is not allowed...please remove it.

Yesterday on a different forum I also came across a member that used a growth inhibitor for his pines in the developed/maintenence stage to specifically keep the needles short.
He claimed that it did a great job with obvious results and also that many nurseries (not bonsai) also use this growth inhibitor for different reasons on their stock.
Let us know how you go. I have no opinion either way but I am always interested in new information.
Cheers, Dario.

Dario wrote:Hi Luke308, I don't know if it is the same product, but G.Potter from Kaizenbonsai is promoting/selling this product...
RHIZOTONIC BONSAI GROWTH STIMULANT

Thanks for the share Dario, yes that is the same product. Looks like I found a winner if Graham Potter is raving about it

I haven't heard of the Cannazym he mentioned either which sounds like a useful product for severely root-bound trees or those which are overdue for a re-pot. The Boost Accelerator is probably similar to many ferts on the market, however I have not seen that exact one. I will look into them though.

Thanks again Dario

I’m wondering why you think accelerated root growth is good for bonsai. I can understand a tonic if the tree is perceived to be “weak”. But I have trouble understanding why you would use any of these products on a healthy bonsai tree, or any tree in a pot
.
These are my reasons for not using them

I'lltart by saying that these products are meant for hydroponics not bonsai. Hydroponics has specific problems for plant growth depending on your approach. Growing bonsai in pots while similar to hydroponics has very different goals. Hydroponics is about developing fruit to make money, bonsai is about developing ramification for aesthetics.

Hydroponics typically only grow four or five crops; tomatoes, cucumber, lettuce, herbs and hippie lettuce. Only tomato’s develop large root systems, the rest are pretty small compared to plant growth. So accelerating the roots of these plants would enhance crop production, which is the whole point of hydroponics.

Main problem with nutrient film and gutter growing in hydroponics is oxygen deficiency in the nutrient solution. This is because roots need oxygen and water can only carry so much. Nutrient film is better then gutter in this respect, but basically plants upstream remove oxygen so that plants downstream become deficient, the greater the root mass the greater the oxygen deficiency becomes. Pretty much all of the pathogens that attack roots do so in oxygen low environments. So a product that protects roots is okay here. This happens in bonsai as well, rots grow and fill up pore spaces, there is a balance though as the leafy crown sucks up water quickly, bringing fresh oxygen into the root zone. Because roots fill air spaces, frequent repotting is so important.

Hydroponically grown plants are not confined in small pots. However a tree in a bonsai pots has only so much space for roots to grow, as they develop they fill up the pore spaces and reduce oxygen content. Trident maples are classic, look at how thick the root mass is at the bottom of a pot. Why would you want to accelerate this process?

Secondly, in any plant there is a balance between top growth and root growth. Roots are carbon sinks; that means that roots only grow when leaves can produce enough carbohydrate (from Carbon dioxide) for them to develop. If a tree is putting its energy into rowing roots it will not develop branches and leaves properly as carbon is being diverted from them. A plant will balance growth between roots and crown. How is forcing a tree to grow roots by artificial stimulation going to help in developing ramification or branches?

Thirdly, roots only take up nutrient elements and water. If your root system is twice the size required for the crown you have an imbalance. (Assuming you have stopped adding root stimulant the plants interest is now in growing leaves). If you are trying to keep a bonsai small then there will be an excess of nutrients in the crown, as plants can only store so much in their leaves, the plant responds by reducing nutrient uptake, so all that those roots are doing is filling up important pore spaces. Hydroponics plant divert nutrients to fruit, there is a sink for the nutrients that the extra roots take up.

So I’m really not sure why using these products (at great expense mind you) will benefit my plants.
Hope you can explain why these are good things to add to my plants.

Paul

I enjoyed your post Paul
I realise you covered this... I can understand a tonic if the tree is perceived to be “weak”...these are the situations I was thinking about...establishing collected material, after repotting (root pruning), air layers, cuttings etc.
I didn't realise it was about using these products at all stages of the plants growth cycle (when healthy etc), but I am interested to find out the results of Luke's tests/experiment.
And will be interested to hear from Luke regarding your input.
Cheers, Dario.

63pmp wrote:I’m wondering why you think accelerated root growth is good for bonsai. I can understand a tonic if the tree is perceived to be “weak”. But I have trouble understanding why you would use any of these products on a healthy bonsai tree, or any tree in a pot

So I’m really not sure why using these products (at great expense mind you) will benefit my plants.
Hope you can explain why these are good things to add to my plants.

Paul

Hi Paul, Thanks for your response to my post, but I would like to clear a few things up if I may?

Firstly in my first sentence I state that I am experimenting, and also that they suit mainly trees in early-development (I am referring to the rock supercharge root tonic)
Secondly I would like you to re-read my last paragraph as I clearly state -

Luke308 wrote: So there is some food for thought, you can make up your own mind if any of these would benefit you. I think they can benefit bonsai growers, especially those with pre-bonsai or trainers. I would recommend following directions to the letter (get a pipette to measure) and don't try these on your most prized trees first.

After talking at lengths with the shop assistant in two different hydro stores inquiring why they think these products could suit bonsai use (I was asking for methods to speed up growth of trees in early development & alternatives to superthrive for transplant shock) I was told by both that trees mirror their growth above and below ground eg the canopy of a tree has roughly the same size root spread/ball. I confess I am not a botanist or a horticulturalist but as you mentioned yourself the purpose of Hydro nutrients is to maximise crop size which to me says the aim is to maximise above ground/pot growth. Both hydro stores told me that the more roots you have, the more upper growth you have and this is exactly what I want for my young trees that a in early development stages.

I am certainly not looking to start an argument nor a debate, I am only wanting to give people the information that these products are available and they can make up they own mind if they think they can benefit from them. I have to say you seem to have contradicted yourself in your post though stating that there is a balance between both top and root growth, but then in your next paragraph you go on to say that if a root system is twice the size required for the crown there will be an imbalance

63pmp wrote: Secondly, in any plant there is a balance between top growth and root growth. Roots are carbon sinks; that means that roots only grow when leaves can produce enough carbohydrate (from Carbon dioxide) for them to develop. If a tree is putting its energy into rowing roots it will not develop branches and leaves properly as carbon is being diverted from them. A plant will balance growth between roots and crown. How is forcing a tree to grow roots by artificial stimulation going to help in developing ramification or branches?
Thirdly, roots only take up nutrient elements and water. If your root system is twice the size required for the crown you have an imbalance. (Assuming you have stopped adding root stimulant the plants interest is now in growing leaves).
So I’m really not sure why using these products (at great expense mind you) will benefit my plants.
Hope you can explain why these are good things to add to my plants.
Paul

By the sounds of it you only have trees that are in refinement stages which is great, however I am not lucky enough to be at that stage yet as I am still pretty new to bonsai. If that is the case, I agree that to root stimulants will be of no use to you, but that doesn't mean they won't be useful to others in the Ausbonsai community.

regarding your last sentence where you stated that these are a great expense, I have to disagree as I got 1 litre of the rock supercharge for $30 which I only use at 1ml per litre of water which should last me a lifetime. And Rhizotonic is around $22 per 250ml but cheaper in bulk and that too you only use in highly diluted amounts, and only on newly acquired trees when establishing and when transplanting, or propagating so that too should last a life time. Rhizotonic is cheaper than superthrive which I am confident majority of serious bonsai growers have bought at one point or another when it was freely available in Australia.

OK Guys let's keep it respectful. It's wonderful that we have differing opinions, but lets keep in mind that each of us is entitled to their own opinion.