Feeding, Substrate and Watering Methods of Walter Pall

[S.O.P]

No worries. I understand your position with costs, but I don't believe hydroponic nutrients would be cost-prohibitive to amend one grow with nutrients, as opposed to fert (even keeping the medium the same). For me to do it, the results would be entirely unquantifiable. It would be, I'd say, the exact same watering schedule, just with nutrient, instead of water.

Maybe next time.

And just a little info, not entirely pertaining to the topic at hand, here is an 'Organic Grow Mix' for Cannabis:

I have decided to remove this "recipe", as it appears to be a recurrent stumbling block for this thread...

And here is the potting soil ingredients:

...as does this one. Now there's nothing to stop this thread being continued in a reasonable manner, is there?

[Matt Jermy]

Gonna jump on the worm juice train again ...
Go the worm juice!!
- its inclusive - esp if used in conjunction with osmocote..
- its free ...
- u get waaay too much , so u can fertilise weekly, or as often as u want - w/j does NOT burn ...
Go the juice!!... can't beat it.
Matt.

[S.O.P]

It has come to my attention, from a PM, that posting an organic soil mix recipe that may, or may not have been used to grow an illegal plant in Australia, is not pertinent to the conversation regarding soil mixes, inorganic or organic.

It's got nothing to do with cannabis, nor do I grow cannabis, nor do I smoke cannabis. As I stated earlier, if you want to learn hydroponics, the most passionate people in the world are cannabis growers.

I posted the 'recipe' for the soil after googling many organic soil mixes and noticed it's a lot more detailed than a lot of the mixes used on here. I found a few of the amendments to be facinating and thought that someone may be interested in seeing what other 'GROWERS' are doing with their container mixes. Whilst Bonsai may be different, it still encompasses roots, photosynthesis ETC.

[Jarrod]

I agree to an extent SOP, how ever our goal is somewhat different to a cannabis grower, we are not chasing bud yield in short term. We are looking for a more sustainable mix that will last anywhere from three to five or even more years on very mature trees. We are looking for thickening of the trunk not size of the bud, so the goals are not comparable. Same goes for other hydroponically grown vegetables, yield comes first.

[S.O.P]

Ahh, true, but you are looking at the flowering side of things?

What does a general fertiliser usually do? It has high N. There are growth nutrients, as opposed to flowering nutrients. And growth, like when increasing flare of a fig, is what you are after?

And it's only been brought up because the further and further you go from organic mediums to inorganic, the closer and closer you can get to hydroponics, or 100% liquid-based 'food'. Like the OP with the 3x the recommended use of fert and then the flushing of it out.

[Joel]

Hi guys,

Dont let such a valuable thread get destroyed. No more attacks please. This is a very important thread that will get linked many times due to the valuable information here.

S.O.P. I see what you are getting at. I have always been interested in fungi and the role they play in soils. However, the goal is to have endomichorizae which attaches itself to the roots for support, and uses the mycelium to go throughout the medium to pick up nutrients and water. I guess it would depend on which species of fungus there is, but i would assume that not all would require organic matter in the substrate. Think about mold growing on the grout in tiles etc. There isnt much OM there. And again, the best results for growth in many things are from the use of a hydroponics system.

There has been some talk about the benefits of michorizae in bonsai culture. A lot from an American guy known as Boon. His mix is developed especially to encourage the symbiotic fungus. Do a search for his mix on google and you will find it.

Pup, great discoveries have been made from Cannabis growers. I do not grow or use, nor do i know anybody that does. Im not defending or attacking those that do either. But do you remember the hype on bonsaitalk when somebody (memory failing) came up with his new fertilizing regime using humic acid after talking to a grower of Cannabis sativa? He was talking about growth rates that far exceeded what he thought possible. And he was using turface only from memory..... a product rather similar to our diatomite.

Look how much our idea of the best medium has changed. We now know its so strongly linked with watering and ferts, that neither should be mentioned individually. We have evolved so much over the last 30 years. Even the last 10 years. It would be immature to suggest we cant better it still. Thanks S.O.P. for the research. Put it into practise and let us know how it goes. Ill be waiting with interest.

Joel

[Matt Jermy]

Good post Joel.
I think u covered it...
...Having seen the japanese 'training' fields of trees,
I've always thought that Nurseries could benefit from a 'lean' towards this type of research ... ??
Especially to 'fast-track' or 'train' trees .. ??
Matt.

[Pup]

To all who are reading and contributing to this thread, It is a good post. My objection is the posting of how to grow an illegal substance. If you have been affected by drugs as a family you will understand. Scrub this mods and you will not here from me again.

I am still getting over it, and yes I do smoke for pain relief, but I do not condone putting up a recipe for coke or ice.

[MattA]

Walter I would like to thank you for the article on using "modern" media in growing bonsai and your methods. Also to everyone else who has contributed there own or researched information. All usable by any of us to find our own happy medium in the search for a suitable medium

Personally I have always had atleast one tree in some sort of 100% inorganic media and trialling several at the moment (crushed rock/tile/brick, scoria, blue metal, diatomite, attapulgite, akadama) as well as various combination mixtures. As has already been pointed out the key to succeeding with them is to give adequate food & water, way beyond what you would think needed. I have always been a heavy waterer and am finally working out how much food the trees want & need to really get good growth.

With regards the use of hydroponic fertilisers, it is something I have played around with in the past. I was using a mix of crushed rock, terracotta tile and perlite. The main problem I found was excess salt build up, even with regular flushing of the mix it still seemed to build up very quickly, going from good to not good for the trees in no time. I couldnt solve the issue so gave that experiment up. They could be good for a boost once every now & then but I will stick with organic ferts for now.

Matt

[S.O.P]

Hi Matt,

How long did it take for the salts to build up?

[bodhidharma]

I have a question on this. As we are pushing, or coming up with new ways to push a tree into growing faster than it normally should, will it cut into the longevity of a tree. I.E Will the tree reach its lifespan quicker? Marijuana is grown very quickly,cut down, and used. Is not our aim to produce trees that will become generational and outlive us? It seems to me that we want to produce trees that reach potential quickly and maybe end up with McBonsai's. The best trees in the world are still the old trees of Japan and they certainly have outlived generations and are glorious. I to experiment with soils but have arrived at the conclusion to keep it as natural as possible and be patient. As we do not know the end result of cutting into a trees lifespan by pushing it hard maybe best to stick to tried and true methods. I, for one, think my world and lifespan comes and goes quick enough and enjoy watching my trees grow at their own pace. Besides all that, i cannot keep up with their grooming as it is

[NBPCA]

I have a question on this. As we are pushing, or coming up with new ways to push a tree into growing faster than it normally should, will it cut into the longevity of a tree. I.E Will the tree reach its lifespan quicker? Marijuana is grown very quickly,cut down, and used. Is not our aim to produce trees that will become generational and outlive us? It seems to me that we want to produce trees that reach potential quickly and maybe end up with McBonsai's. The best trees in the world are still the old trees of Japan and they certainly have outlived generations and are glorious. I to experiment with soils but have arrived at the conclusion to keep it as natural as possible and be patient. As we do not know the end result of cutting into a trees lifespan by pushing it hard maybe best to stick to tried and true methods. I, for one, think my world and lifespan comes and goes quick enough and enjoy watching my trees grow at their own pace. Besides all that, i cannot keep up with their grooming as it is

Interesting thought.

Lebanese cedars live for around 1,000 years in their natural habitat but in England they only live around 400 yrs. They grow quicker and keel over earlier.Will they live 1,000 years as Bonsai? I'll let you know in 980 years time.

Will an Acacia live longer than its normal time span as a bonsai? Probably yes is my thought. We can watch carefully and protect against disease and insect attack that usually cause them to keel over at a young age.

I don't think we will shorten the lifespan of a bonsai by keeping it well fed, watered, pest and disease free(ish). As I have always been an advocate for higher than "conventional fertilizing regimes" and have never subscribed to the "half strength" fertilizing myth I am obviously biased but my trees and those at the collection are "healthy".

The other well known advocate of Super Feeding (His name escapes me ; American Italian name) told me that once you get the tree to the state you wan't it to be at for long periods you back off the fertilizer, as Walter also says, but not too long to the detriment of the tree.

Grant

[Mojo Moyogi]

Michael Persiano.

[Chris H]

I wouldnt know because I dont measure anything out.

I just put a slurp in. I measured what I thought was my normal slurp yesterday and I was at least three times the recommended dose.

But I should ad this is only for the pines, figs and maples. For the Azalea, prunus and anything recently potted I am much more careful.

[63pmp]

Trees will only grow as fast as their genetics allow, feeding them up and accelerating growth won't affect there longevity. And plants will always grow better in the ground then in a hydroponic situation.

The only plants that are grown by commercial hydroponics are those that are too tender to be grown outdoors and/or have a high cash value. Dope is grown hydroponically because neighbors dob you in to the police, additionally, the main aim of hydroponic dope is to get high THC levels, not the biggest dope plant. The other bonus of hydroponics for dope is that they can get 3 or 4 growing seasons into one year, so they get a faster genetic breeding plan happening.

Regarding fertilising bonsai in hydroponic manner, you can only put so much fertilizer on a plant before it dies, the strength of the fertiliser a plant can tolerate is determined by the salinity of the solution, an EC of nutrient solutions is essential knowledge. It is always much better to use a dilute solution often than a more concentrated solution infrequently. If you want to use hydroponic fertilisers you need a good understanding of the chemistry, pH and EC. It is very easy to run into problems with hydroponic nutrient solutions. Mostly because of sudden pH changes and nutrient toxicities.

Waltars fertiliser plan works because he has hard water. I had this discussion on another forum regarding just fertilizing with off the counter inorganic fertilisers like miracle-gro, most of these fertilisers do not have calcium or magnesium in them. If you feed aggressively, and you do not supply calcium and magnesium either in your water or with additional supplements, then you will get nutritional imbalances. If you mix up your ferts, as suggested by Mr Lindsy Farr, then you will have less a problem with nutritional imbalances.

Paul