Dangers of a Wet Layer

[Ray M]

Hi Truth,

Hi Ray,

They were a bit wet yes, I have been noticing this progressively over the last 2 weeks or so though. Doesn't seem to be worsening.

During my research I found that once a layer became very wet, especially before there is any sign of roots, that there was a good chance it would fail. I tried putting holes in the plastic and squeezing out the excess water but that appeared not to work. I needed to do the layers again. My suggestion at this stage would be to open one of the layers and see if there is any sign of roots. If roots are visible you could try again by making sure the sphagnum is squeezed out well. If there are no roots I would do the layers again.

Regards Ray

[Truth]

No worries, that's what I did. I will give it some time now and report back any successes or failures.

[Bonsaiforest]

Hi Bonsaiforest,

Thought it looked a little odd... Thick trunk, large canopy & then a small layer half way down the trunk. Yep...I'm definitely still learning & thanks for the confirmation of adding extra moss. Will be on my to'do list for tomorrow.

Thanks again Ray...Cant wait until my books arrive...Maybe then I wont have as many questions. Please wait until you read your books. You may find that you need to do more than just add more moss.

Regards Ray

Hi Ray...Received your books...Lot's of detailed information that is simple to apply...! I've gone ahead & have done the layer again. Re-cutting the original layer by a few mm on the top cut, & have expanded the distance (between top & bottom) to approximately one and a half times the diameter of the trunk. Added the tourniquet wire around top cut & have applied your suggested mix hormone paste. I've also tripled the amount of moss & made sure that it wasn't too wet. I already have slow release osmocote in the mix but would it be best to fertilize regularly with liquid feed to increase vigour and new growth. Well hope all goes well & the layer is successful...Now it's just a waiting game.

[Ray M]

Hi Bonsaiforest,

Hi Ray...Received your books...Good to hear the books arrived safe.Lot's of detailed information that is simple to apply...! I've gone ahead & have done the layer again. Re-cutting the original layer by a few mm on the top cut, & have expanded the distance (between top & bottom) to approximately one and a half times the diameter of the trunk. Added the tourniquet wire around top cut & have applied your suggested mix hormone paste. I've also tripled the amount of moss & made sure that it wasn't too wet. I already have slow release osmocote in the mix but would it be best to fertilize regularly with liquid feed to increase vigour and new growth. You can fertilize the host tree as you would normally. It certainly won't hurt to use some liquid fertilizer. Don't overdo it. I use PowerFeed and Charlie Carp as my liquid fertilizers. I alternate between the two of them. Well hope all goes well & the layer is successful...Now it's just a waiting game. As with all things bonsai, it is a game of patience. Make sure there are plenty of roots before you remove the layer/layers.

Regards Ray

[Truth]

After the torrential rain of earlier today I went out to check the layers I re-did the other day.

Keeping in mind they are all double plastic layered, with cable ties at each end, with electrical tape sealing off the ends, string tried and wrapped off, then sealed again with more electrical tape, then with a layer of foil all around it, there was STILL water in the bag from the rain. I'm at a complete loss now How can you possibly keep the water out Ray?

[Ray M]

After the torrential rain of earlier today I went out to check the layers I re-did the other day.

Keeping in mind they are all double plastic layered, with cable ties at each end, with electrical tape sealing off the ends, string tried and wrapped off, then sealed again with more electrical tape, then with a layer of foil all around it, there was STILL water in the bag from the rain. I'm at a complete loss now How can you possibly keep the water out Ray?

Hi Truth,
Sound like you have put a lot of effort into trying to keep excess water out. From your photos I believe your layers are horizontal layers. I think the best thing to do is to put some holes along the bottom of the layers and see if that is enough to get them to drain. Let me know what happens over the next couple of weeks.

Regards Ray

[Bonsaiforest]

Hi Bonsaiforest,

Hi Ray...Received your books...Good to hear the books arrived safe.Lot's of detailed information that is simple to apply...! I've gone ahead & have done the layer again. Re-cutting the original layer by a few mm on the top cut, & have expanded the distance (between top & bottom) to approximately one and a half times the diameter of the trunk. Added the tourniquet wire around top cut & have applied your suggested mix hormone paste. I've also tripled the amount of moss & made sure that it wasn't too wet. I already have slow release osmocote in the mix but would it be best to fertilize regularly with liquid feed to increase vigour and new growth. You can fertilize the host tree as you would normally. It certainly won't hurt to use some liquid fertilizer. Don't overdo it. I use PowerFeed and Charlie Carp as my liquid fertilizers. I alternate between the two of them. Well hope all goes well & the layer is successful...Now it's just a waiting game. As with all things bonsai, it is a game of patience. Make sure there are plenty of roots before you remove the layer/layers.

Regards Ray

Hi Ray... I know it's a game of patience with layers yet I'm a little concerned. I re-applied the air layer pretty close to 20 days ago. And my Zelkova has been sulking ever since. Seems to be pretty stressed... No signs of new growth and the leaves seem to be droop slightly instead of reaching for the light. I currently have it in Mid to late afternoon sun, & seeing that we've had quite a few really hot day here in Sydney that maybe that could be a factor. Was wondering if it would do better with just early to late morning sun...? In the proposed location it would receive sun until it hit about 11:30am, then the tree would be in full shade for the rest of the day. Suppose it's just going to have to be a process of elimination...I've kept up the watering regime...so it's definitely not thirsty & have ruled that out... I'm confident that I applied the layer correctly as per your books and personal suggestions. Just a little lost...What to look for & what to do to rectify the problem I really don't know...Hopefully it will just need more time to adjust to the new layer. If you could add or throw your wisdom this way it would be greatly appreciated...

[Ray M]

Hi Bonsaiforest,

Hi Bonsaiforest,

Hi Ray... I know it's a game of patience with layers yet I'm a little concerned. I re-applied the air layer pretty close to 20 days ago. And my Zelkova has been sulking ever since. Seems to be pretty stressed... No signs of new growth and the leaves seem to be droop slightly instead of reaching for the light. I currently have it in Mid to late afternoon sun, & seeing that we've had quite a few really hot day here in Sydney that maybe that could be a factor. Do you think it has shown more stress since we have had these hot days? Was wondering if it would do better with just early to late morning sun...? In the proposed location it would receive sun until it hit about 11:30am, then the tree would be in full shade for the rest of the day. I think this is a good move. Certainly try this for a couple of weeks and see if sparks up. Suppose it's just going to have to be a process of elimination...I've kept up the watering regime...so it's definitely not thirsty & have ruled that out... I'm confident that I applied the layer correctly as per your books and personal suggestions. Just a little lost...What to look for & what to do to rectify the problem I really don't know...Hopefully it will just need more time to adjust to the new layer. If you could add or throw your wisdom this way it would be greatly appreciated...

Something to try. Make sure it is in the cool of the day, either morning or afternoon. Give it a water over the foliage with a Seasol solution. Try and make sure it doesn't enter into the layer and over saturate it.

If you look under the foil does the layer look very wet?

Regards Ray

[Bonsaiforest]

Hi Ray...Thanks so much for the reply. Had a look under the foil and right at the bottom of the layer the moss has turned slightly green (about a 1cm ring right around base) So I'm assuming that it's due to too much moisture. I gently squeezed the layer and there was a very small amount of water in the bottom of the bag. So in reading your other suggestions in this post I've gone ahead and poked holes in the bottom to let any excess moisture escape. Have just sprayed with a light Seasol solution. Was wondering it would increase vigour if I added a drop of super thrive to my Seasol mix...?

[Ray M]

Hi Bonsaiforest,

Hi Ray...Thanks so much for the reply. Had a look under the foil and right at the bottom of the layer the moss has turned slightly green (about a 1cm ring right around base) So I'm assuming that it's due to too much moisture. I gently squeezed the layer and there was a very small amount of water in the bottom of the bag. So in reading your other suggestions in this post I've gone ahead and poked holes in the bottom to let any excess moisture escape. Have just sprayed with a light Seasol solution. Was wondering it would increase vigour if I added a drop of super thrive to my Seasol mix...? Maybe wait and see if just the Seasol sparks it up again. When you can see good recovery you could add the Super Thrive

Regards Ray

[Bonsaiforest]

Thanks Very Much Ray....

[Bonsaiforest]

Finally ... time to breath a slight sigh of relief. It's taken a long time but my Zelkova has finally started to throw roots (first signs was about 2 & a half weeks ago). Although, I'm a little concerned... I was expecting to have roots grow evenly around the layer. There are roots growing really strong on left side of the layer (too many to count). Yet on the right side there is only one juvenile root showing. Could this mean that a bridge that has formed between the layer (thus no roots on the right side). Thoughts....?

[shibui]

I was expecting to have roots grow evenly around the layer. There are roots growing really strong on left side of the layer (too many to count). Yet on the right side there is only one juvenile root showing. Could this mean that a bridge that has formed between the layer (thus no roots on the right side). Thoughts....?

Layers often grow more roots on one side. possibly due to more light on one side of the branch = more nutrients coming down one side? Very unlikely it has bridged the gap - that usually results in no roots - and even if it has you already have plenty of roots for it to survive. After it has been cut off the parent and needs to be self sufficient it will continue to develop roots and you will probably end up with roots all round

[Bonsaiforest]

I was expecting to have roots grow evenly around the layer. There are roots growing really strong on left side of the layer (too many to count). Yet on the right side there is only one juvenile root showing. Could this mean that a bridge that has formed between the layer (thus no roots on the right side). Thoughts....?

Layers often grow more roots on one side. possibly due to more light on one side of the branch = more nutrients coming down one side? Very unlikely it has bridged the gap - that usually results in no roots - and even if it has you already have plenty of roots for it to survive. After it has been cut off the parent and needs to be self sufficient it will continue to develop roots and you will probably end up with roots all round

Thanks Shibui...Will play the waiting game & remove layer when it's full of roots... Will probably post a pick first for the Wise to check it out first before I go ahead & chop. Wishing Yourself and Family a Very Merry Christmas & a Happy New Year... "Yes I'm I a novice+" & really appreciate all of the advice you've thrown my way... definitely taught me a thing or two...or three for that matter...

Cheers

[Truth]

I finally have some roots!

This first layer is older, by about a month:

IMG_2280.JPG

The second one is 1.5-2 months old, it is wetter inside due to the raininess Sydney has been experiencing the last 2 weeks or so, and doesn't drain quite as well as the other layer:

IMG_2282.JPG

I'll leave them both on for a little while longer to develop stronger and more extensive root systems before removal. These 2 layers are off the same tree, the layers I have on the other Japanese Maple however don't seem to have rooted, and the foliage on top is dying back a bit and the leaves changing colour. Even the foliage on these rooted layers has died back slightly and looks a bit lighter in colour to the rest of the tree, but here's to hoping it'll be able to pull through.

I'll keep you updated Ray!