Air-layer / tree deveopment question

[karraway2]

Ok so over the past month i have been able to access some large tree stock at great prices with the intention of making some really nice larger bonsai from. My initial intent was to simply layer off different parts of the tree into smaller trees, let them grow out for 1-2 years while they really establish themselves in pots and then commence work.

However something occurred to me. Rather than go through the above process and then begin the reduction process etc, could i simply not already start the reduction and bonsai preparation on the full tree?

So for instance with the beech tree, i would already start trying to cut back to the shortest bud as branches tend to die if you cut back further. This would then allow the larger tree to put its energy into growing newer buds closer to the trunk. Likewise with the Maple i could already chop some of the branches down to where i would want the tree crown to start and then let it backbud and throw out new shoots over the trunks/branches. Following this i would then air-layer in a few growing seasons each tree off the main tree. This was i have the full strength of the tree working for me rather then doing it with the reduced trees after air-layering and separation.

Would this help achieve better growth and recovery of any wounds at a better and faster rate by doing all the work on the main tree first?

I guess the dilemma is that i spend time doing all this and have the unfortunate instance of the air-layered trees not taking and dying and thus wasting all my efforts....

[alpineart]

Hi karraway2 , mate i have certainly done my share of air layers and have found the more foliage on top the quicker and better roots mass is developed on the layers . I have done Japanese maples pre trimmed and wouldn't do it again . All mine have a tendancy to struggle , yet the layers with full un-cut foliage have done very well .I can honestly say i have never done a beech . Personally i would layer then train .Time lost awaiting good recovery is not ideal and i have lost 50mm , 80mm and 100mm Japanese maple layers cutting back hard or pre trimming hard ' not all die but the certainly haven't recovered like the un-trimmed material and it will be years before i can actually do anything with them .

I have layered 1 year old layers and that work well as long as the apex is not trimmed . Basically set a layer where you want to chop , layer off , pot up and the next season set another layer again where you want to chop . This may only apply to my approach with Japanese Maples ,I have trimmed Japanese grey Bark Elms -Zelkova and it works well and set a layer on the previous years severed layer , it is almost ready to remove now . I can't say if its a success until i remove the new layer which is due about now as the leaves have dropped off the top layer but the bottom which is last years layer is still growing . It would be good to hear from others who have done dozens of various layers .

Cheers Alpineart

[karraway2]

Thanks for the advice! I think i will go with your experience and just layer off everything i need and then work on them as individual trees.

Andrew

[xtolord]

You could have a look at this guy's flickr account : http://www.flickr.com/photos/norbury/

He has a LOT of shohin bonsai that i believe he developped from air layers.
Try to contact him.

Cheers
X

[xtolord]

By LOTs I mean this :

[Olivecrazy]

Dam thats alot of trees my wife will go when ive got that many

[squizzy]

What are you saying olive you already have that many olives!!!!!!

[Matthew]

Ive only ever done 2 layers and both have been successful to date. One a large apple tree branch 120mm diameter and the corky elm i recently posted. i let both branches grow freely and only removed some foliage when i removed the layer. Both were used with the pot method i dont have time to be there every few hours during summer checking the things. usually perform layers in spring when the tree is most active and seperate autumn depending on species , root growth etc.

[gtuthill]

Hi karraway2!

Nice stock, glad you got them for a good price.

Here's my advice:
if the nebari on the stock is good, and the trunk is as thick as you want the finished tree to be, then chop the top off and start making your tree.
If you want more trees, find more for a good price, or make your air layers, with the view that the base tree will be delayed by a year or two.

Its the old cheap, quick, good triangle, you can only choose two.

Cheers
Greg

[CraigM]

Hi Karraway2,

Did you manage to layer the beech, how did things turn out?

What method did you use?

Regards
Craig