Trident transplant (ground to pot)
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Re: Trident transplant (ground to pot)
Photo collage update time! For convenience, old with new ...
I tried matching the angles to the previous collage, bit harder this time as we cannot see the tree through the leaves!!!
20th September 2020:
21st October 2020:
I tried matching the angles to the previous collage, bit harder this time as we cannot see the tree through the leaves!!!
20th September 2020:
21st October 2020:
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Re: Trident transplant (ground to pot)
With that much growth and this far into spring I would say this transplant has been successful.
I would still let it grow without any work, probably all this summer but you could start planning what shape and size you want to work towards.
I would still let it grow without any work, probably all this summer but you could start planning what shape and size you want to work towards.
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Re: Trident transplant (ground to pot)
Oh no, I missed @shibui's last post ... I went out on the weekend and tried wiring down some branches, to help flatten them out. Accidently broke two at the base of the trunk, though hoping they self-repair. Not trimming anything at this stage.
Shape: going for a failrly standard, informal upright, though open to suggestions, from others and the tree itself
Size: I'd still like to get the trunk down to half the height but that means losing the fork that I like. Was thinking of air-layering some of it, though it might not be strong enough for that yet.
Shape: going for a failrly standard, informal upright, though open to suggestions, from others and the tree itself
Size: I'd still like to get the trunk down to half the height but that means losing the fork that I like. Was thinking of air-layering some of it, though it might not be strong enough for that yet.
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Re: Trident transplant (ground to pot)
The tree is still trying to get over a traumatic experience. It has used up stores to grow new shoots and new roots. Now it needs some leaves, sunlight and fertilizer to rebuild all those reserves.
New roots are very brittle. Playing with the top and moving the trunk can shear off new roots emerging from the cuts under the soil.
New shoots growing from the trunk are also very loosely attached when small and young. You have already found that they come away from the bark so easily at this stage. Leave them to grow, even if these ones grow straight up the base of each new shoot will develop lots of buds that will shoot easily next time provided the tree is allowed to regain strength.
It may be frustrating to wait 6 months or another year but that's so much better than a dead tree.
New roots are very brittle. Playing with the top and moving the trunk can shear off new roots emerging from the cuts under the soil.
New shoots growing from the trunk are also very loosely attached when small and young. You have already found that they come away from the bark so easily at this stage. Leave them to grow, even if these ones grow straight up the base of each new shoot will develop lots of buds that will shoot easily next time provided the tree is allowed to regain strength.
It may be frustrating to wait 6 months or another year but that's so much better than a dead tree.
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Re: Trident transplant (ground to pot)
Very wise words @shibui ... hopefully I haven't done too much damage. Very happy to wait until next spring before thinking about styling again. I just assumed now was a good time to style, as the shoots were fresh and soft, but makes sense the tree hasn't totally recovered yet.
Only two branches were damaged, and so far they're still holding on (unless I should just cut them off to save the tree wasting energy repairing them?).
Pic below of the wiring I had done (for reference of what not to do):
Assume best to leave it as is for now, as to remove the wiring could damage it some more?
Only two branches were damaged, and so far they're still holding on (unless I should just cut them off to save the tree wasting energy repairing them?).
Pic below of the wiring I had done (for reference of what not to do):
Assume best to leave it as is for now, as to remove the wiring could damage it some more?
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Re: Trident transplant (ground to pot)
Definitely leave the wires and even damaged branches as they are now. Unwiring is usually way more difficult than wiring so you will only break of more. If the broken ones are still alive that's OK. It won't stress the tree to repair small cracks.
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Re: Trident transplant (ground to pot)
Thanks again @shibui!!! Will leaf it alone until next year, I promise.
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Re: Trident transplant (ground to pot)
Quick update, also after some advice (please) ...
Maple doing well, crazy to think it only had one thing branch when potted in August, some thoughts/advice welcome:
1- if I should repot this year or not (bit heavy to just lift and check the roots, is that the only way)?
2- if repotting, wait until leaves dropped and buds start to swell (end of winter)?
3- if repotting, same pot again, or try shallower?
4- still planning to cut this down to half the trunk height, though loving the fork, so thinking (when it's more recovered) will air layer the fork off? Or would that be too stressful?
Thanks,
Daniel
Maple doing well, crazy to think it only had one thing branch when potted in August, some thoughts/advice welcome:
1- if I should repot this year or not (bit heavy to just lift and check the roots, is that the only way)?
2- if repotting, wait until leaves dropped and buds start to swell (end of winter)?
3- if repotting, same pot again, or try shallower?
4- still planning to cut this down to half the trunk height, though loving the fork, so thinking (when it's more recovered) will air layer the fork off? Or would that be too stressful?
Thanks,
Daniel
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Re: Trident transplant (ground to pot)
It has only been in this pot for a year so could go another year. I note that some of the old roots are out of the soil. They cannot grow new roots while they are above ground. Either add more soil to the existing pot to cover all roots or repot.
Personally I would prefer a wider pot to promote better lateral surface roots. Those are the ones you will want if this ever gets to a bonsai pot. If wider is too heavy then make it a shallower container. The surface roots are the ones we really need for bonsai so no need for deeper roots.
Shallow pot is not necessary. Deeper roots can be pruned. In fact root pruning promotes much better root system than forced growth in a shallow container. The problem is that wide deep pots are heavy and inconvenient so wider, shallow pots are more convenient to grow larger trees.
Many growers custom make a wooden box to grow trees. You can make these to required dimensions.
Plastic oil drain pans from the auto shop are another option. Includes convenient moulded handles. Drill plenty of drain holes.
Washing tubs from Bunnings or other homeware shops are another option. 9litre tub is 340x270x130 deep. Drill plenty of drain holes.
Polystyrene fruit boxes are sometimes still available from green grocers. Light weight and insulating but they do gradually break down in sunlight so only last a few years.
I repot tridents any time from mid winter through to buds opening. They don't seem to have any problems with early repotting so don't worry about the traditional 'bud swell'.
There's probably enough growth on that to layer if you want to. Not sure I'd bother to layer off a slingshot fork with 2 equally thick, straight trunks but others will see it different and if you think it looks good go for it.
Personally I would prefer a wider pot to promote better lateral surface roots. Those are the ones you will want if this ever gets to a bonsai pot. If wider is too heavy then make it a shallower container. The surface roots are the ones we really need for bonsai so no need for deeper roots.
Shallow pot is not necessary. Deeper roots can be pruned. In fact root pruning promotes much better root system than forced growth in a shallow container. The problem is that wide deep pots are heavy and inconvenient so wider, shallow pots are more convenient to grow larger trees.
Many growers custom make a wooden box to grow trees. You can make these to required dimensions.
Plastic oil drain pans from the auto shop are another option. Includes convenient moulded handles. Drill plenty of drain holes.
Washing tubs from Bunnings or other homeware shops are another option. 9litre tub is 340x270x130 deep. Drill plenty of drain holes.
Polystyrene fruit boxes are sometimes still available from green grocers. Light weight and insulating but they do gradually break down in sunlight so only last a few years.
I repot tridents any time from mid winter through to buds opening. They don't seem to have any problems with early repotting so don't worry about the traditional 'bud swell'.
There's probably enough growth on that to layer if you want to. Not sure I'd bother to layer off a slingshot fork with 2 equally thick, straight trunks but others will see it different and if you think it looks good go for it.
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Re: Trident transplant (ground to pot)
Ok, SOLD!!!
Many gems packed into your reply shibui, thank you (as always).
- Roots above ground: That's the same approx level it was in the ground, now that you point it out ... they look a bit exposed, will try to submerse it a bit. Do I need to do anything with the roots when they go back under soil? Strip some bark? Or will it naturally sense soil and shoot new roots?
- Wider pot: Yes!!! Makes sense. I was actually out at Ray Nesci's on the weekend, getting soil mix and looking at the big pots there. Nothing suitable for where I'm currently at though, as you say need shallower roots first. I did notice some of his large format trees in custom made crates. I actually have a wooden pallet I can rip apart and re-assemble! Will have to get my woodworking hat out and dusted off.
The current plastic pot is 40x40x30cm(h). Will aim to make something 80x80x15xm(h)? With good drainage ... and wheels!
- layerng the dual pole "slingshot" fork: My daughter is very keen on the fork (could be a chess thing, or maybe she too sees value in a big slingshot, haha) and as I was looking to remove that section at some point anyway thought best not to waste it if possible, but the base takes priority.
So ... TLDR: safe/good to repot now, or month or two later, into wider shallower "pot". Air layer as desired (start late Spring/early Summer), note it might look odd.
Thanks again!!!
P.S Keen to hear if others have experience with "slingshot" style?? Tips for building "box pot on wheels", etc?
Many gems packed into your reply shibui, thank you (as always).
- Roots above ground: That's the same approx level it was in the ground, now that you point it out ... they look a bit exposed, will try to submerse it a bit. Do I need to do anything with the roots when they go back under soil? Strip some bark? Or will it naturally sense soil and shoot new roots?
- Wider pot: Yes!!! Makes sense. I was actually out at Ray Nesci's on the weekend, getting soil mix and looking at the big pots there. Nothing suitable for where I'm currently at though, as you say need shallower roots first. I did notice some of his large format trees in custom made crates. I actually have a wooden pallet I can rip apart and re-assemble! Will have to get my woodworking hat out and dusted off.
The current plastic pot is 40x40x30cm(h). Will aim to make something 80x80x15xm(h)? With good drainage ... and wheels!
- layerng the dual pole "slingshot" fork: My daughter is very keen on the fork (could be a chess thing, or maybe she too sees value in a big slingshot, haha) and as I was looking to remove that section at some point anyway thought best not to waste it if possible, but the base takes priority.
So ... TLDR: safe/good to repot now, or month or two later, into wider shallower "pot". Air layer as desired (start late Spring/early Summer), note it might look odd.
Thanks again!!!
P.S Keen to hear if others have experience with "slingshot" style?? Tips for building "box pot on wheels", etc?
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Re: Trident transplant (ground to pot)
Actually, those numbers for the hand made "pot" might not be right. Just measured my supplies, rough sketch of proposed plans below:
Left image shows approx current pot, right image, to scale, shows what I can achieve. To go bigger will need (a) trip to hardware store, (b) possibly parking my car elsewhere
Would this size still achieve what's needed? Or best to go 80+?
I can easily make it 60x50x15cm ... 80x80 could be a bit too large for the space.Left image shows approx current pot, right image, to scale, shows what I can achieve. To go bigger will need (a) trip to hardware store, (b) possibly parking my car elsewhere
Would this size still achieve what's needed? Or best to go 80+?
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Re: Trident transplant (ground to pot)
Hi Legoman, regarding the "slingshot" fork, have you thought of cutting one of the branches back quite short and then using that for lower branch ramification and cutting the remaining branch back to a lesser extent so that remains your dominant leader.
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Re: Trident transplant (ground to pot)
The root circled in red clearly did not grow above ground in its previous life. Roots just don't do that. Neither will they produce more roots in air. Looks like it has produced good callus at the end so if you just add soil to cover it properly it should send out new roots quite quickly.Roots above ground: That's the same approx level it was in the ground, now that you point it out ... they look a bit exposed,
60x 50x 15 will be better than the current pot which is far too small to promote good lateral roots. Should be adequate for the trunk size. I'd leave repotting another month or so. Use the time to get the new pot and other supplies ready. Shipping pallets make good temporary grow boxes if you can get them apart without destroying the boards. Castors will be a good idea to make the pot more mobile.
Big trees are much admired but remember you will be stuck with a big, heavy tree for as long as you own it. Turning the tree every week or so, repotting every few years, take it to a show are all difficult and let me tell you that even though you are currently fit and strong it does not get any easier as time passes but good luck with this one for now.
Probably best to start your layer in spring after the leaves open.
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Re: Trident transplant (ground to pot)
Interesting idea Raging Bull ... nice option. Think I get what you mean, though then I have the tough choice, which is my favourite to become the leader?! Haha.
Will try the layer later in the year, then after repotting,
the layer next year think about styling? Good idea though, thanks!
Shibui, bit lost ... "root circled in red"? Though I assume the raised severed root? This tree was in a big pot about 14 years ago, then moved into the ground about 10 years ago when pot bound. Then repotted last year before the property was sold. Guess along the way the soil receeded?
Cover in soil, can and will do!
Glad my plans sound sound. Actually, the size is a mini pallet, all I need to do is attach the side panels, and mesh the bottom, will update with pics on the "pot".
Will wait a bit longer too to repot, no rush. It is still holding leaves, don't want to disturb it's final cash grab at the sun. Also, not sure how to even repot it without breaking all the wonderful delicate lower branches. Might research some videos on it, enlist some muscle to lift, allow root prune if too deep for new pot.
If I get to the stage it's show worthy, I'll attach it to the toe bar, or book it an uber, easy, haha. But noted, big tree, big impressions, big back pain.
Question: turning the tree??? To evenly get sun all the way around? All year round? Never done that with my smaller ones, should I?
And yes, I've layered small branches before from this tree, started when leaves very lush, semi confident on that front, just wasn't sure if it'd be healthy enough or if I should wait another year. Sounds like, "If it has leaves, it's good to layer".
Will try the layer later in the year, then after repotting,
the layer next year think about styling? Good idea though, thanks!
Shibui, bit lost ... "root circled in red"? Though I assume the raised severed root? This tree was in a big pot about 14 years ago, then moved into the ground about 10 years ago when pot bound. Then repotted last year before the property was sold. Guess along the way the soil receeded?
Cover in soil, can and will do!
Glad my plans sound sound. Actually, the size is a mini pallet, all I need to do is attach the side panels, and mesh the bottom, will update with pics on the "pot".
Will wait a bit longer too to repot, no rush. It is still holding leaves, don't want to disturb it's final cash grab at the sun. Also, not sure how to even repot it without breaking all the wonderful delicate lower branches. Might research some videos on it, enlist some muscle to lift, allow root prune if too deep for new pot.
If I get to the stage it's show worthy, I'll attach it to the toe bar, or book it an uber, easy, haha. But noted, big tree, big impressions, big back pain.
Question: turning the tree??? To evenly get sun all the way around? All year round? Never done that with my smaller ones, should I?
And yes, I've layered small branches before from this tree, started when leaves very lush, semi confident on that front, just wasn't sure if it'd be healthy enough or if I should wait another year. Sounds like, "If it has leaves, it's good to layer".