English Elm Defoliated.

[Bretts]

The ratio guideline is trunk width to height. Not root spread entering soil to height. This transition can be blurred in certain trees with great nebari flare. In such trees I include an amount of the flare of the base as I figure it does influence the image. I have not been instructed in this but it just makes sense to me.

This is an example of where I would measure the width of a tree trunk like this.

2d1.jpg

I get this tree at about 9-1 The trees that Jow linked to earlier are at about 6-1.

Sumo is less than 3-1 literati is often over 13-1 I enjoy Sumo and Literati I also enjoy the number of amazing images possible in between that can all posses wabi sabi and design balance that we strive for in bonsai.
Literati is over 13-1 yet a great one shows amazing grace and beauty. It is funny that you relate to Wabi Sabi Antonio as I believe part of wabi sabi would be to appreciate something even though it is not the most powerful or even the oldest. To walk in a Forrest full of powerful trees and still notice the beauty of a graceful tree that has recently reached maturity with the promise of many years to come it invokes an image of the future.
There are many stories to tell I like them all as long as the story is good

[anttal63]

2d1.jpg

hey brett; this is where i go from. the solid wood b4 the roots break. simarly to you i think this is where it effects the trunk ratio or as you will, it's interaction with the trunk ratio. this too suits me in the way i view trees wether its correct or not. so for me in this example and the maples, good ramification structure and flare, verses ratio's are the factors that create power in grace. the feminin is attractive when it holds some power. how much strength?, is determined by how these elements interact with one another.

sumo and literate are in a league of there own. of what i have seen and feel, only literate pulls off the higher ratio's. anything over 9 or 10. omo. again true grace and beauty has power for me.

wabisabi is simple but yet too complex to put in a nut shell. much physical and emotional involved. the only way i can relay the way im using it, is...
that its there and there is no need to go any where else. wether a beautiful young bonsai is in the realm of wabisabi for bonsai, im not convinced but i may be wrong. in deed a good story is a good story. and a walk in the forest is a blessing.

[Bretts]

Using your way of measuring and stating that the above tree is about 6 or 7-1 puts it in the average stature bonsai yet it is definitely a graceful tree. I must say though it is not one that I am that keen on. It looks to much like a poplar for my liking
Using your way of measuring the deciduous trees from bonsai journal I get about 3-1 which makes them on the brink of sumo yet they imply to me an average stature. Not overly heavy and not light either.

Often as a bonsai ages a great root spread will fuse. Although the image is influenced by this I don't see the impact being so great that a 10-1 tree looks like a 6-1 tree just because the roots have fused together?

I understand wabi to have a degree of egolessness. To me this can mean finding beauty and strength in something even though it does not overpower the rest.

[aaron_tas]

ratios don't matter too much to me

my eye understands more than i care to explain at this late hour.

if my tree fits into a ratio that someone else wants to adhere to, that's fine but the tree will tell me how tall it wants to be

[anttal63]

ratios don't matter too much to me

my eye understands more than i care to explain at this late hour.

if my tree fits into a ratio that someone else wants to adhere to, that's fine but the tree will tell me how tall it wants to be

and there is the answer right there!!! nice one aaron. it is exactly how i feel about it. we can keep quoting numbers till the cows come home but the configuration of numbers will always make or break the image. the sooner we see this as art and not algebra, the better.

[bodhidharma]

Amen to that.

[Bretts]

I thought we had gotten past this!
The ratio rule is a valuable tool in creating bonsai. Take the link that Jow gave to Bunjing Journal. If I want a tree like those pictured it takes many years just to grow the trunk. When working out where to chop the trunk at each stage the ratio rule is almost essential. Now you may say I never get the ruler out but I can bet that your brain is doing the calculations any way whether you confirm it with a ruler or not.
I don't tend to draw my trees yet I know my brain is making pictures in my head whenever I am planning my trees. I am not going to go around saying bah you don't need to draw your trees my eye understands more than I care to explain

I like to have the structure sound and let my imagination wander from there. Others may let their imagination wander and then structure it with a drawing plan. Is one way better than the other.
If you started discussing drawing or virtual techniques I will not jump in and say bah why are you bothering.
If one person is calling a tree 6-1 and another is calling it 10-1 at the least this is a communication conundrum!

[aaron_tas]

sorry if i offended you bretts...

When working out where to chop the trunk at each stage the ratio rule is almost essential.

i think of the "rule" as being more an observation of the material we have, not the means to get there.

Is one way better than the other.

no, you are right. there are many ways to make bonsai, and if you're happy to make a piece of science, craft or art, you are still happy.

i like the way you take this art so scientifically tho, if i was reading your posts thru my early bonsai years, i'd be learnin heeeeps, i suppose that's what it's all about here... learnin

Others may let their imagination wander

that is what bonsai is to me, my time away from time... i am others.

[Pup]

That is why I cannot do Bonsai I have never been any good at MATH. As a child I struggled with it. Though my apprenticeship I was always JUST passing. Even now Mrs Pup has a go at me when I try to balance the Bank account.

As for drawing NAH according to Herb Gustafson author of many Bonsai books. I will never be able to produce a Bonsai because I cant draw. If that is the case I will now give up what I have been trying for years to achieve. Thought I had ah! well back to the drawing board, for what good that will do .

By the way JOW sorry for the Hi Jack

Cheers Pup

Ps I do what I do because I enjoy it, as well as helping others try. Oh by the way I do have a scientific licence

[Jow]

No problems Pup... i don't mind the hijack at all...

I guess what this all comes back to is that there is more than one way to skin a cat, and each person needs to look within them selves for what methods best suit their personal approach and styling goals.

Its always interesting to see how different people approach solving similar problems.

[aaron_tas]

well said jow, you are a man with better words than i

i love your tree by the way, the way the apex leans into the middle of the composition, and i think with one more stage of ramification, its gonna sit sweet as in that pot.

[Bretts]

if i was reading your posts thru my early bonsai years, i'd be learnin heeeeps

Hang in there Aaron, We are only discussing the basics so far. I seem to get stopped in my tracks vindicating the usefullness of these studies everytime we discuss them.

Science is very much the study of nature. The more we understand nature the better we can make our compositions look more natural.

Robert Stevens is no fan of the rules of bonsai yet he talks of studies of Leonardo da Vinci who was an Italian polymath, scientist, mathematician, engineer, inventor, anatomist, painter, sculptor, architect, botanist, musician and writer.

I have not read Roberts books yet, they are wrapped up ready to open Xmas morning. Yet the excerpts I have seen from Robert indicate to me he is very interested in the golden section and other studies of Nature from Leonardo da Vinci as indicated by the cover of his latest book. Yet Robert's trees are applauded for their individuality and imaginative thinking!

There is an interesting phenomenon with trees that if you look you will see that tree trunks don't taper. If you look at a tree it certainly looks like it tapers but if you study it you will soon see that no branch or trunk actually tapers. What does happen is that every time a branch leaves the trunk the trunk above is slightly less in diameter.
I recently noticed that Robert has picked up on Leonardo da Vinci's studies of this in a different way. Although Robert does not specify there is no taper he does bring point to the fact that Leonardo noticed that the sum of all the branches of a tree add up to the same diameter of the trunk.

leo.jpg

The most conjoined part of mathematics nature and the arts must be the Golden section. It is amazing to think that we are looking at this golden section all day every day in the arrangement of branches along the stems of plants and of veins in leaves, the skeletons of animals and the branchings of their veins and nerves, to the proportions of chemical compounds and the geometry of crystals.
Working in the metal industry we are constantly battling warping and ensuring things stay square. Over time you develop an eye that can detect the slightest error in proportion. It is a great feeling when your eye follows the lines of a finishes item and it does not hesitate at something that is out of order. Often checking with a square is just going through the motions because you know it is right. Some times the eye will tell you something is wrong yet it takes a long time to find it with square straight edge and ruler in hand. Some times I can not find the problem and I need to ask some one that understands better than me.

So what does all this have to do with the width to height ratio? We have been looking at the golden section all our lives and some times when we try to recreate nature our mind is telling us something is wrong with the image we have created. We can't put our finger on it as we have never documented how we know what should be. We have to ask some one "This tree looks wrong for some reason can you work out why?"
Some of the greatest artists in the world use rulers and design principles to construct their art so that they are pleasing to the eye. Do you really think if you put a ruler too your tree that it will become less of a tree or you won't be game to continue to let the imagination create.

[anttal63]

yes bretts; happy reading when christmas comes. im yet to complete reading the 2nd book. but myself and aaron have spent a considerable amount of time with robert. yes he is fascinated by davinci's study of tree anatomy. but it aint all gospel and robert is the first to say that not all trees in nature can be considered for artistic excellence. again its back to how you configure the numbers and not necessarily the numbers themselves.

[aaron_tas]

how you configure the numbers and not necessarily the numbers themselves.

brilliant.

i studied a bit on proportioning, looked at a couple of architects and how they used it, looked at the golden section the vitruvian man and other attempts. all were viable and it helped themselves and others explain thier ideas...

nice post bretts

[Bretts]

I would say that the Golden section is as close to gospel as you can get. The Chinese/Japanese new what they where talking about when they wrote the rules and I think they relate alot to the golden section. They where just misunderstood. Edit: I have considerd that Leonardo's understanding of the sum of branches works easy for a broom and I am not sure if Robert addresses this but I have wonderd where to dray the line to sum the parts on an informal upright tree in the full size and in a bonsai size?
Yes not every flower gets painted but some times the colour of the petal might be used to paint another.
If you put a text of artistic design principles in front of 100 people it will not make everyone a great artist but It is definitely going to improve the art of the majority of the people.
I can only see benefit in continuing to analyse and use this information when constructing our compositions.

I am very interested to read Roberts two current books and his new one on the Schools of Penjing I am sure I will learn plenty from them. Yet I still have some issues with some of the argument that he has used.
Have you ever wondered why Chinese are often portrayed as talking in riddles. It's because they do. They believe that

Hints and suggestions are considered better guides than obvious directions

When you understand this you realise that the rules must be taken as a bunch of riddles needed to be solved. Your trees will look quite silly if you follow the riddles without working them out.

anttal63 wrote:
how you configure the numbers and not necessarily the numbers themselves

I would agree if you are suggesting that the numbers can be manipulated. Take some from here and put that here because it simplifies but I believe the answer at the end remains the same. This would be configuring the numbers in my eyes. This is something I have said before. The better you understand the numbers and what they do the more you can manipulate them.