Air-Layering A River Red

Discussions about propagating from cuttings, seeds, air layers etc. Going on a dig (Yamadori) or thinking of importing? Discuss how, when and where here.
User avatar
FlyBri
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 1042
Joined: November 12th, 2008, 1:11 pm
Favorite Species: Eucalyptus camaldulensis
Bonsai Age: 14
Bonsai Club: AusBonsai.com
Location: Hurstbridge VIC
Has thanked: 19 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Air-Layering A River Red

Post by FlyBri »

sreeve wrote:Were you making the pleats in the hope of getting the roots to come from the end of the pleat and by doing so, get a headstart on flare?

Or another reason I could think of would be to open up a lot more of the cambium layer and therefore improve the success rate of the layer?
Gday Steve!

The main aim of the pleats is to create taper at the base of the layer, but a side effect is the exposure of more of the cambium, as you mentioned.

Thanks.

Fly.
User avatar
anttal63
Bend me twist me
Bend me twist me
Posts: 5325
Joined: November 11th, 2008, 12:32 pm
Bonsai Age: 14
Bonsai Club: MYCLUB
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Air-Layering A River Red

Post by anttal63 »

way to go blood !!! :D
Regards Antonio:
User avatar
FlyBri
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 1042
Joined: November 12th, 2008, 1:11 pm
Favorite Species: Eucalyptus camaldulensis
Bonsai Age: 14
Bonsai Club: AusBonsai.com
Location: Hurstbridge VIC
Has thanked: 19 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Air-Layering A River Red

Post by FlyBri »

FlyBri wrote:More to come...
Sorry folks... I was in the process of taking four angles when my camera's batteries died.
BaLoc_RR_Dec09_07.jpg
BaLoc_RR_Dec09_08.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
Bretts
Bonsai Philosopher
Bonsai Philosopher
Posts: 6670
Joined: November 14th, 2008, 11:04 pm
Favorite Species: carpinus jbp
Bonsai Age: 12
Location: Jervis Bay NSW
Has thanked: 1 time
Contact:

Re: Air-Layering A River Red

Post by Bretts »

Hey Fly Nice work. Took me a while to find this thread even though I had been keeping up with your progress over Xmas.
In your PM you state that these guys air layer well all year as long as they are growing well. Yet they can't be removed too close to winter.
I am keen to try this as a collecting tool of some interesting gums growing through rocks on the dry side of a dam as well as improving the bases of the ones I have at home.

I think I better use the last of this season to experiment with mine at home as leaving the layers on out in the wild is fraught with danger from the local natives with inquiring minds :lol:
Last edited by Bretts on December 28th, 2009, 10:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
It's too bad your in such a hurry cause the stories I could tell you, Bushels and baskets of stories, hole crates full of stories. But if you can spare a moment I will tell you one story.
User avatar
FlyBri
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 1042
Joined: November 12th, 2008, 1:11 pm
Favorite Species: Eucalyptus camaldulensis
Bonsai Age: 14
Bonsai Club: AusBonsai.com
Location: Hurstbridge VIC
Has thanked: 19 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Air-Layering A River Red

Post by FlyBri »

Bretts wrote:In your PM you state that these guys air layer well all year as long as they are growing well. Yet they can't be removed too close to winter.
Gday Brettles!

That sort of what I said... :geek: From memory, my exact words were:
Anytime seems to be OK, but you'll get faster results when the tree is growing strongly. Also, when removing the layer, bear in mind what season it is: I would avoid removing a layer after early Autumn, as the layer may not have time to set roots before Winter sets in.
I'll be keen to see what your results are: I have little experience with any Eucs other than River Reds. I have had success (finally) with one Angophora floribunda, and the layer I tried on my E. sideroxylon has failed (the tree above the layer site has died).

Let us know how you go!

Thanks.

Fly.
User avatar
FlyBri
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 1042
Joined: November 12th, 2008, 1:11 pm
Favorite Species: Eucalyptus camaldulensis
Bonsai Age: 14
Bonsai Club: AusBonsai.com
Location: Hurstbridge VIC
Has thanked: 19 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Air-Layering A River Red

Post by FlyBri »

Gday folks!

Going back to the original tree in this thread: the 'donor' or 'parent' tree was getting to the point where I could not put off a repot any longer. As usual, it was becoming difficult to get the soil to stay damp for any period of time, and the leaves would wilt at the drop of a hat. So, in order to repot I needed to remove the layer whether it had taken or not...
RR_Skirt_Layer_Mar_10_01.jpg
RR_Skirt_Layer_Mar_10_02.jpg
Not surprisingly, it appeared that the layering medium had dried out once again, and the tree had bridged the wound. (It has been a difficult summer for my trees, as paid work and household projects have had me flat out. :oops: )
RR_Skirt_Layer_Mar_10_03.jpg
RR_Skirt_Layer_Mar_10_04.jpg
Some may have read the Koreshoffs' suggestion that Euc lignotubers may be stripped of any roots/branches and planted with good success rates. In this case, I am hoping that the massive swelling I've created will act as a lignotuber, and that with plenty of water and a freely-draining soil mix I might end up with a living tree. If not, I haven't really lost anything but a bit of time.
RR_Skirt_Layer_Mar_10_05.jpg
Updates as they come to hand.

Thanks.

Fly.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
pasquale
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 77
Joined: January 17th, 2009, 10:32 pm
Bonsai Age: 0
Location: Sydney
Has thanked: 13 times

Re: Air-Layering A River Red

Post by pasquale »

Interesting Fly. I look forward to seeing if you have managed to create a lignotuber (or just a large scar). If you have I figure that means you caused some root development (proteoid roots) that regressed but the potential for root growth remains. I'm not a plant biologist but I guess that would mean you have promoted growth of undifferentiated cells (or de-differentiated). I can't recall if you use rooting hormone.
Good luck and thanks for sharing.
Dom124
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 25
Joined: March 14th, 2010, 3:57 pm
Bonsai Age: 3
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Air-Layering A River Red

Post by Dom124 »

Fly.... Great result and great tutorial

Air-Layering is on the " i want to do more " list.
but with threads like this it makes you want to attempt more trees... thanx mate :roll: :D
Last edited by Dom124 on March 17th, 2010, 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Mitchell
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 1807
Joined: February 15th, 2010, 4:34 pm
Favorite Species: Ficus
Bonsai Age: 1
Bonsai Club: [color=#FFFF00]Aus[/color][color=#40FF40]Bonsai[/color]
Location: Sydney,Beecroft

Re: Air-Layering A River Red

Post by Mitchell »

Great stuff indeed. Have you thought about adding a physical border to stop bridging? Or is it bridging to keep itself alive?
Sorry, pardon my ignorance.... If we were to physically stop it bridging, say with a metal wall that ran around the bottom cut, what would that achieve, anything?

The use of tile spacers is amazing, you are extremley creative!



Your giving me the layering bug again... I just hate/love the waiting.
Last edited by Mitchell on March 17th, 2010, 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Regards, Mitchell.



"It is one thing to shape a tree into form, but when you are able to convincingly deceive ones perception of reality, something much more is accomplished than just a simple bonsai."

"In a perfect world, we would all be giants and all plants Bonsai."

"Grow big, finish small."


Image Join Ausbonsai today Click Here! Image
User avatar
FlyBri
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 1042
Joined: November 12th, 2008, 1:11 pm
Favorite Species: Eucalyptus camaldulensis
Bonsai Age: 14
Bonsai Club: AusBonsai.com
Location: Hurstbridge VIC
Has thanked: 19 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Air-Layering A River Red

Post by FlyBri »

pasquale wrote:Interesting Fly. I look forward to seeing if you have managed to create a lignotuber (or just a large scar). If you have I figure that means you caused some root development (proteoid roots) that regressed but the potential for root growth remains. I'm not a plant biologist but I guess that would mean you have promoted growth of undifferentiated cells (or de-differentiated). I can't recall if you use rooting hormone.
Gday Pasquale!

I'm pretty positive that I have managed to create something more than scar tissue: when you look back through older photos of the layering process, you will find definite evidence of the beginnings of roots. Unfortunately, due to my lack of proper care, these have dried out and receded.

Image

I did not use root hormone on this tree, and I don't know if it would be of much use, as the River Reds seem (generally) very willing to root by themselves.
Dom124 wrote:Air-Layering is on the " i want to do more " list.
but with threads like this it makes you want to attempt more trees... thanx mate :roll: :D
Gday Dom!

Properly executed (unlike this example), air-layering is a great way of obtaining large and/or established material very cheaply. Let us know how you go!
Creeping Dragon wrote:Have you thought about adding a physical border to stop bridging? Or is it bridging to keep itself alive?
Sorry, pardon my ignorance.... If we were to physically stop it bridging, say with a metal wall that ran around the bottom cut, what would that achieve, anything?
Gday CD!

As I understand it, the 'bridging' is the tree's way of attempting to heal itself in order to save the portion above the layer site. Assuming that the layer throws sufficient roots early enough, these roots will begin to support upper growth almost independently of the base. In such cases it is my observation (assumption?) that when a layer roots well (thus taking some of the strain off the lower trunk), the tree is already well on the way to becoming 2 trees, and as such the layer site is not treated by the tree as a wound, and bridging is minimized.

In regards to your 'physical border': it might be of some use, but on a tree which puts on girth quickly (such as a young River Red) I would be concerned that the tree could become strangulated as its diameter exceeds that of the solid barrier, thus stopping the upward flow of nutrients/water to the layer site. I have read about the 'tourniquet' method of layering which involves tightly wrapping a wire about the trunk and twisting the ends until the wire bites into the bark. The theory here is that the tree will grow into the wire, and gradually the saw flow to the roots will be stopped at the wire, causing roots to shoot. It sounds kinda like what you are suggesting, but one major difference is that the cambium layer is protected by the thickness of the bark, and should not be strangled as the trunk expands.

In short, I guess I'm saying that I wouldn't bother. In future, I'll be using the same method with the exception that I will try to ensure better conditions for the layer to take (IE: I'll make sure to water properly :oops: ).

Thanks all!

Fly.
User avatar
Jamie
Bonsai passionardo
Bonsai passionardo
Posts: 6829
Joined: August 21st, 2009, 8:08 pm
Favorite Species: CLERO!!!,ficus, celtis, juniper, elms
Bonsai Age: 9
Bonsai Club: AUSBONSAI.COM
Location: queensland, Hervey Bay
Been thanked: 2 times
Contact:

Re: Air-Layering A River Red

Post by Jamie »

good morning mr fly :D

the way i see it with a physical border is that because the tree has beeen ring barked the supply and flow of nutrients to the upper section of the tree have already been interrupted and would not cause an issue, the physical barrier also wouldnt cause an issue to thickening of the trunk as the live layers of the tree have been removed there fore that section of the trunk that has been ring barked which has the physical barier would therefore not thicken.

i think a wire would not be sufficient for this though as the way the scar tissue bridges and heals i would say would grwo straight ove the wire without even having an issue.

bit technical but i hope you all understand :D


jamie :D
SHOHIN YAKUZA!!!
:twisted: taking the top half of trees of since 2005! :twisted:
and growing trees for the future generations! 50+ year plans :D
User avatar
Mitchell
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 1807
Joined: February 15th, 2010, 4:34 pm
Favorite Species: Ficus
Bonsai Age: 1
Bonsai Club: [color=#FFFF00]Aus[/color][color=#40FF40]Bonsai[/color]
Location: Sydney,Beecroft

Re: Air-Layering A River Red

Post by Mitchell »

If Jamie is correct about it not growing, then you could pop rivet a sheet of aluminium in a cone shape. If it does indeed swell, then perhaps a cone with a adjustable clamp to loosen as the tree expands.

On this topic, why do we include the bottom cut edge, in the soil medium? Does this not incourage it to bridge? What would happen if say you shifted your pot up above the bottom lip, so it is exposed and visible. Could we not then keep an eye on it and cut it back if it trys to bridge? I am imagining we need to cover it too for some reason... :?
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by Mitchell on March 18th, 2010, 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Regards, Mitchell.



"It is one thing to shape a tree into form, but when you are able to convincingly deceive ones perception of reality, something much more is accomplished than just a simple bonsai."

"In a perfect world, we would all be giants and all plants Bonsai."

"Grow big, finish small."


Image Join Ausbonsai today Click Here! Image
User avatar
Jamie
Bonsai passionardo
Bonsai passionardo
Posts: 6829
Joined: August 21st, 2009, 8:08 pm
Favorite Species: CLERO!!!,ficus, celtis, juniper, elms
Bonsai Age: 9
Bonsai Club: AUSBONSAI.COM
Location: queensland, Hervey Bay
Been thanked: 2 times
Contact:

Re: Air-Layering A River Red

Post by Jamie »

i think including the cut edge is just the way it happens as doing it this way allows for more root growth space. i would think that being sphagnum moss the main medium used for layers aswell it has some what of an anti bacterial effect keeping nasties out.

i think the idea of blocking the bottom section of would have a good effect in the stopping of new growth bridging the gap though :D


jamie :D
SHOHIN YAKUZA!!!
:twisted: taking the top half of trees of since 2005! :twisted:
and growing trees for the future generations! 50+ year plans :D
User avatar
Gerard
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 2656
Joined: October 7th, 2009, 12:32 pm
Favorite Species: pines
Bonsai Age: 16
Bonsai Club: BSV, Northwest, Northern Suburbs, VNBC
Location: Melbourne
Has thanked: 18 times
Been thanked: 49 times

Re: Air-Layering A River Red

Post by Gerard »

I believe it is important to have both cut edges covered as there should still be some exchange of nutrients between the roots and the top of the layer, these would travel through the soil/moss around the wound. If you did not cover the bottom edge of the cut you might as well sever it completely and give it its own pot.

Regards Gerard
Q: Why are we all here?
A: Because we are not all there.
User avatar
Jamie
Bonsai passionardo
Bonsai passionardo
Posts: 6829
Joined: August 21st, 2009, 8:08 pm
Favorite Species: CLERO!!!,ficus, celtis, juniper, elms
Bonsai Age: 9
Bonsai Club: AUSBONSAI.COM
Location: queensland, Hervey Bay
Been thanked: 2 times
Contact:

Re: Air-Layering A River Red

Post by Jamie »

thats a good point gerard. the mysteries of bonsai techniques. i can see what your saying there but surely the transport of nutrients from the bottom of the layer to the top is minute. but the if that was the case why do we botther with layers if basically we were just doing one big cutting?

jamie :D
SHOHIN YAKUZA!!!
:twisted: taking the top half of trees of since 2005! :twisted:
and growing trees for the future generations! 50+ year plans :D
Post Reply

Return to “Propagation, Collecting and Importing”